Cycle Travel Question

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
Psamathe
Posts: 11114
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby Psamathe » 17 Feb 2020, 12:55pm

mjr wrote:Can't one simply use c.t to route between EV6 and the campsites, loading three routes into the device at once? Even my current lightweight map app will show up to four routes at a time.

I think having another routing option like that will mean someone buying c.t another server.

I agree it could be challenging and I was only doing a qualified +1 to somebody else requesting the same feature.

I found on EV6 the signposting was "variable" and places non-existent so turn by turn along the EV sections would also be useful. I'm lazy and find I far prefer being able to cycle along looking at countryside, etc. rather than focusing on navigation, stopping to look at maps, etc. so turn by turn is great for me (but I recognise that others do and enjoy other ways).

I don't think it's a really crucial feature but sometimes I've made suggestions I thought would be a nightmare and 10 mins later Richard posts a "done" comment. Plus it can be useful for a developer to be aware of features the user-base would like to prioritise development (even for related functionality) - so it's as more in the spirit of feedback about how I use the site as an "I want this function".

Ian

Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 1468
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: Cycle Travel question!

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 17 Feb 2020, 2:46pm

MartinFox wrote:If I put a route on to my Garmin 530 as a tcx course some information seems to be missing when I look at the route on the Garmin. For example the route distance is given as 0 ft whereas on the website it is 30 miles. Also the elevation information seems to be missing, but only on the Garmin. However, once I start the ride it gives the distance to destination correctly. It is in the route summary that things seem to be missing or incorrect.


Hmm. Not sure about the total distance - cycle.travel certainly writes that to the TCX file, so I'm not sure why the Garmin isn't picking it up. If you could email me a cycle.travel file that doesn't work, and a Strava file that does, I'm happy to have a look. (info@cycle.travel should get to me.)

To have elevation included in the TCX, you need to have the elevation showing on the cycle.travel map page when you export it.

LittleGreyCat wrote:Using the flatter Eastern route for LEJOG reversed for a JOGLE takes me over the ferry at Cromarty.
It was pointed out that this is a seasonal ferry and only runs May to mid September.

I have a nagging feeling that I have raised this before because 3 of the 4 ferries up the Suffolk coast are seasonal as well, but my searching back is poor.

Anyway, is there a way to warn of seasonal ferries?
Assuming of course that there is accurate mapping information.
Another Mea Culpa because I have yet to contribute my first edit to OSM.


Sure! cycle.travel's turn-by-turn directions do warn that a ferry is seasonal if it's marked as such in OSM. I've just tweaked this so it'll give a warning at the top of the instructions too. Here's an example: https://cycle.travel/map?from=37.7546,- ... ,-119.1248 . If you plan a long route you'll need to have the turn-by-turn instructions showing for this to work - there's a button marked 'Show turn-by-turn instructions'.

The Cromarty ferry didn't have this tagged in OSM, but I've just fixed that and it'll show up next time c.t takes an OSM update.

(On a slight OSM technical tangent... cycle.travel looks for the seasonal=yes tag on roads/ferries. There is another way of marking part-time opening on OSM which is the infamously complex opening_hours tag. cycle.travel doesn't currently understand that, not least because there's no opening_hours parser yet in the Lua programming language that cycle.travel uses for its routing choices. So it's best to add seasonal=yes even if opening_hours is already tagged.)

Psamathe wrote:
mjr wrote:Can't one simply use c.t to route between EV6 and the campsites, loading three routes into the device at once? Even my current lightweight map app will show up to four routes at a time.

I think having another routing option like that will mean someone buying c.t another server.

I agree it could be challenging and I was only doing a qualified +1 to somebody else requesting the same feature.

I found on EV6 the signposting was "variable" and places non-existent so turn by turn along the EV sections would also be useful. I'm lazy and find I far prefer being able to cycle along looking at countryside, etc. rather than focusing on navigation, stopping to look at maps, etc. so turn by turn is great for me (but I recognise that others do and enjoy other ways).

I don't think it's a really crucial feature but sometimes I've made suggestions I thought would be a nightmare and 10 mins later Richard posts a "done" comment. Plus it can be useful for a developer to be aware of features the user-base would like to prioritise development (even for related functionality) - so it's as more in the spirit of feedback about how I use the site as an "I want this function".


The reason I'd really like to add a feature along these lines is that people often use c.t to plan routes broadly along a EuroVelo route (or NCN route, or whatever), but sometimes taking detours to campsites or interesting places en route.

This isn't always as easy as it should be. If you ask c.t for a route from (say) Chepstow to Holyhead, then it'll pretty much choose Lon Las Cymru (NCN 8 ) all the way, just cutting off a couple of digressions. But if you ask for a route along the north coast of France, the result is nothing like EuroVelo 4 unless you spend time adding lots of via points. That's not surprising - EV4 is pretty circuitous - but it does mean that, if you actually want to have a tour along EV4, cycle.travel isn't as easy as it could be.

In an ideal world I'd like to add a "follow waymarked cycle routes only" routing mode. In theory, that (unlike any other routing mode) actually shouldn't require buying a whole new routing server, because the network graph of bike routes is comparatively tiny. But the problem is that what look like continuous routes in OSM often have tiny little breaks in them - for example, someone might have just mapped the cycle route in one direction around a one-way town square, or forgotten to add a crossing across a busy road. So you'd ask for Oxford to London via waymarked routes only, and it'd refuse to find any route at all due to a lacuna in Wallingford or somewhere.

So what I'm working on is a way to load pre-planned routes for EuroVelo/NCN/etc. into the route-planner. This will make it easier for people to plan their tours along these routes, without being too sensitive to breakages in OSM. I've written all the code that takes the OSM data and makes a c.t route out of it, I just need to spend some time working out the best way to integrate it into the site!
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 14965
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby mjr » 17 Feb 2020, 2:51pm

It's it possible to see who plotted a saved route found in a search?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

LittleGreyCat
Posts: 678
Joined: 7 Aug 2013, 8:31pm

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby LittleGreyCat » 17 Feb 2020, 7:12pm

Thanks, Richard!

Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 1468
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 17 Feb 2020, 9:29pm

mjr wrote:It's it possible to see who plotted a saved route found in a search?


Not yet, or at least, not directly. I'm going to make the "search for other planned routes" features more prominent - now there are 140,000 of them - but need to do a couple of changes first to make people more aware that their routes might be visible. I've just today, for example, added a checkbox to the "save route" dialogue so that you can make your route private on saving, without having to go through the journeys page. I don't want the thieves-using-Strava thing to repeat itself!
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

Psamathe
Posts: 11114
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Cycle Travel question!

Postby Psamathe » 17 Feb 2020, 9:51pm

Richard Fairhurst wrote:.....
So what I'm working on is a way to load pre-planned routes for EuroVelo/NCN/etc. into the route-planner. This will make it easier for people to plan their tours along these routes, without being too sensitive to breakages in OSM. I've written all the code that takes the OSM data and makes a c.t route out of it, I just need to spend some time working out the best way to integrate it into the site!

Without understanding the internals or how routing works or anything but thinking about general algorithms (i.e. ignore this as it's probably a daft idea) but at the moment cycle.travel uses traffic data to prefer quieter routes over busier routes. So if you load a new pseudo route e.g. EV3 and set the traffic volume to be very low/zero then existing algorithms will have a preference to route on the EV3 route rather than the existing road structure.

Grief about junctions etc so maybe merge in the EV3 route to the existing road data and "fiddle" the traffic levels to make existing algorithms prefer the EV rout (or NCN or whatever). Or when you import traffic data if it covers for a cycle path identified from a list (and you have the EV tags as cycle.travel already displays EV labels) then "doctor" the traffic levels to e.g. 10% of the imported traffic level (or some value that works.

Ian

Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 1468
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 17 Feb 2020, 10:05pm

The idea is sound! Yes, it would certainly be possible to do that - i.e. create a routing profile which would include the full network, but with a higher ranking for EuroVelo/NCN routes. The issue (as mjr alluded) is the RAM usage for a full network - just adding one such profile would require another 16GB memory at current usage, and that only increases as OSM gets more detailed. The routing/rendering server is running pretty close to capacity as it is, so it would mean renting another server, and that means £££...
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 1468
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 26 Feb 2020, 12:28pm

Just updated the maps and routing, and I've been able to incorporate more French traffic data this time. Route choices in about 50% of France are now informed by real traffic data, which helps cycle.travel do a better job of choosing the quietest routes. The picture shows the current coverage - I'm not aware of any more départements that publish their traffic data in machine-readable format, but always happy to hear of more!
Image Attachments
Screenshot 2020-02-24 at 10.30.16.png
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8258
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby al_yrpal » 1 Mar 2020, 2:04pm

Richard, I am volunteering to help with a group of people wanting to get back into cycling. Its pretty hilly around here, is there any way to get cycle.travel to choose the least hilly circular routes. I know one can look at the elevation profile but I recall you recently mapped out a LEJOG route chosen on the basis of fewer serious hills?

TIA

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

Angstrom
Posts: 54
Joined: 21 Nov 2018, 6:57am

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby Angstrom » 2 Mar 2020, 9:51am

Richard Fairhurst wrote:Just updated the maps and routing, and I've been able to incorporate more French traffic data this time. Route choices in about 50% of France are now informed by real traffic data, which helps cycle.travel do a better job of choosing the quietest routes. The picture shows the current coverage - I'm not aware of any more départements that publish their traffic data in machine-readable format, but always happy to hear of more!

Good news Richard. Thanks.

I'll look into why the Départements in my region (Occitania) is not providing this data.

Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 1468
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 2 Mar 2020, 3:30pm

al_yrpal wrote:Richard, I am volunteering to help with a group of people wanting to get back into cycling. Its pretty hilly around here, is there any way to get cycle.travel to choose the least hilly circular routes. I know one can look at the elevation profile but I recall you recently mapped out a LEJOG route chosen on the basis of fewer serious hills?


I just did it by dragging the route around and using the elevation profile, I'm afraid! There isn't a magic trick to find the least hilly routes, though cycle.travel does of course try to avoid climbing where it can. The Chilterns are one of just a few places where I've had to get off and push on a National Cycle Network route so you have my sympathies...

Angstrom wrote:Good news Richard. Thanks.

I'll look into why the Départements in my region (Occitania) is not providing this data.


Brilliant - thank you. As far as I can gather, most (all?) départements do collect the data, but not all of them publish it - and even if they do, sometimes it's in machine-unreadable PDFs. Apparently a law was passed in 2014 to mandate a common format, but I've not yet seen any results even though the 2019 deadline has passed: http://tempogeo.blogspot.com/2016/08/li ... nnuel.html
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8258
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: Cycle Travel Question

Postby al_yrpal » 10 Mar 2020, 10:51am

Thanks Richard,

Love the new pdf bike map....perfect!

Using cycle.travel on my Android phone with Osmand+ installed it all works perfectly and seamlessly, so quick to get a decent route, and pick it up in Osmand+ giving one screen and voice directions with the phone in a stem mounted waterproof mount with an auxilliary battery stored below.

Remember you were working on an ability to drag the route, not available on the phone just yet...but, you can add a via point.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?