Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
bohrsatom
Posts: 438
Joined: 20 May 2013, 4:36pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby bohrsatom » 11 May 2019, 10:40am

The uncertainty around getting a CTC bag accepted with short haul airlines is making me want to buy a Groundeffect Tardis or Dogsbody.... at least it'll be accepted

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 13138
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby mjr » 13 May 2019, 11:19am

bohrsatom wrote:The uncertainty around getting a CTC bag accepted with short haul airlines is making me want to buy a Groundeffect Tardis or Dogsbody.... at least it'll be accepted

Are you sure? The Tardis and Dogsbody aren't padded either and at 172cm long, the Dogsbody is on the long size for oversize baggage.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

simonhill
Posts: 2390
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 11:28am
Location: Essex

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby simonhill » 13 May 2019, 3:41pm

While the Dogsbody isn't padded, it is made of sturdy nylon - much like a surf board case, rucksacks or shoulder bags. I think most people using it would pad it out with cardboard or bubblewrap so even if the bag is breached its not bare bike that sticks out.

I can't be bothered to unwrap mine again, but the website says Dimensions: 172cm (wheel to handlebar diagonal) x 80cm (high). note diagonal, so using a rough trigonometry, the length should be about 150.

mattheus
Posts: 490
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby mattheus » 13 May 2019, 4:25pm

bohrsatom wrote:The uncertainty around getting a CTC bag accepted with short haul airlines is making me want to buy a Groundeffect Tardis or Dogsbody.... at least it'll be accepted

I would say "... with short haul budget airlines...",

... because BA are fine with them (so far - Aug 2018 being the latest trip). Easyjet were not (from Nice in 2017).

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby thirdcrank » 13 May 2019, 5:08pm

The only thing that's lacking here is any sort of certainty. Few people want to travel and have any hassle. Fewer still want to be stopped from travelling by the hassle as was the case with the unfortunate OP. Most people like to plan to avoid these sorts of problems so when they do their best to get it right - as in this case - it just puts the brass knobs on.

From the information above, it seems that cyclingUK sell these bags with a caveat. In my words, they are generally OK but sometimes they are not. From experiences recounted above, there can be inconsistency within the same airline. I've a feeling that a lot of baggage handling is outsourced so decisions may be being made by somebody not directly connected with the relevant airline.

AFAIK, cyclingUK has sold these bags as a not-for-profit service, and it's been highly valued by users. I wonder if there's some scope for cyclingUK - under the heading of the cyclists' champion etc., to negotiate a common standard with the industry, although I appreciate that this might be opening a can of mines or treading on a wormfield. If decisions have to be made at the discretion of the foot soldiers, some will be defensive and that's not including the occasional bloody-minded individual. Although it's long been fashionable to call people jobsworths (Esther Rantzen That's Life ?) people do worry about losing their job. Something agreed with the industry would give peace of mind all round. If an individual airline refused to participate, would-be passengers would have a better idea of how to plan

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 13138
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby mjr » 13 May 2019, 5:32pm

thirdcrank wrote:I wonder if there's some scope for cyclingUK - under the heading of the cyclists' champion etc., to negotiate a common standard with the industry, although I appreciate that this might be opening a can of mines or treading on a wormfield.

Would it work, though? Even if you could get IATA or someone to agree (and why would they bother with a UK body? Maybe the European Cyclists Federation could get their attention), there would still be plenty of worry about whether any particular airline or airport actually followed it in practice. Like the Confederation of Passenger Transport said at one time that bagged folded bikes are fine on all UK buses, yet we still get occasional reports of them being refused (and not only from overcrowded services).
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby thirdcrank » 13 May 2019, 7:47pm

I don't know what it would take to make things better than now if you accept my point that the problem is the uncertainty. I get the impression from what's been posted above, that most of the people find that a bike packed in a cUK bag is OK, most of the time. Most people don't have a problem unless they are unsettled by uncertainty.

I see two aspects to this thread. First, there is the immediate situation of the OP who has lost £££ and a holiday. There's advice of the I-am-not-a-lawyer-but-I-should-have-thought type and an inconclusive discussion about a small claim. Then, there is the understandable concern of people who don't want to find themselves in this position, which has motivated a seperate thread to concentrate on that aspect.

bohrsatom
Posts: 438
Joined: 20 May 2013, 4:36pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby bohrsatom » 13 May 2019, 9:26pm

mjr wrote:
bohrsatom wrote:The uncertainty around getting a CTC bag accepted with short haul airlines is making me want to buy a Groundeffect Tardis or Dogsbody.... at least it'll be accepted

Are you sure? The Tardis and Dogsbody aren't padded either and at 172cm long, the Dogsbody is on the long size for oversize baggage.


Of course nothing can be guaranteed. But I think it's a case of a CTC bag and a Ground Effect looking different, even if physically they're quite similar. After all one's just a plastic bag: if you come under scrutiny from a jobsworth check-in agent then you're going to have a hard time proving it's anything else.

Navrig
Posts: 77
Joined: 9 Apr 2018, 12:46pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby Navrig » 14 May 2019, 8:51am

Presumably this is all about insurance and either the number of claims or exposure to the number of (potential claims).

It would be interesting to know how may claims are made against baggage handlers each year to better understand if the change in policy is justified.

I suspect that there are few other factors at play here.

    If my experience is reasonably common more bikes are being taken on planes for cycling holidays.

    The number of high value bikes has increased significantly increased over the last 10 years which probably means that the number of higher value claims has gone up.

    There may also be a perception that bicycles are more "fragile" than they really are.

Airline companies probably push all claims on to the handling companies who are now pushing back and, not unreasonably, asking that cyclists make an effort to protect their bikes.

It all makes sense until you turn up at the check-in desk and it all starts to go wrong.

willem jongman
Posts: 1986
Joined: 7 Jan 2008, 4:16pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby willem jongman » 15 May 2019, 10:54am

Ryanair are evil. I recently had to threaten them with action from our bank before they were even prepared to look into the fact that they had somehow not administered our payment for a flight (they denied they had been paid when we could prove that they had). The (big) bank was not surprised, and happy to put the screws on, which met with immediate surrender by Ryanair. This was not our first bad experience with them, so I have decided never to fly with them again.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6431
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby Bonefishblues » 15 May 2019, 11:10am

I protect my stuff when I fly to fish. I think it's my responsibility to pack securely and carefully (we all know the frangibility of carbon fibre), so I do, irrespective of whether I'm insured or not, and I am, of course.

I've never had any damage.

MartinBrice
Posts: 448
Joined: 13 Nov 2007, 9:57am

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby MartinBrice » 18 May 2019, 11:01pm

This is rather worrying. I've flown with the bike in a plastic bag many times. Ryanair do have a very poor reputation for customer service but when I flew without a bike, admittedly, from Spain to Stansted in November it was like any other airline.
My only suggestion for those contemplating flying with a bike but who can't acquire a cardboard box designed for a bike is to go to a supermarket and nick a load of cardboard boxes then make them into a box using parcel tape. The brand printing on the boxes goes on the inside, obvs. I did this when flying back from southern Patagonia into Santiago, Chile, then back across the pond into Heathrow. Because it looks like a box for a bike, and is wrapped in loads of parcel tape it would appear to be a "box". When in fact all it consists of is a cardboard wrapping.
And for the OP all I can offer is condolences. And try the small claims court - you might find if your claim is 1p below £1,000 someone lowly can OK it without referring it to a supervisor. But that won't compensate for time of work booked and lost. A very sad take caused by the incompetence of one individual.
When flying out of Santiago, Spain, a couple of years ago, the check in man said everything was OK but the bikes should be in cardboard boxes so we showed him the easyJet website but he replied it was to do with the airport loading company, not easyJet so we told him to phone his boss. After 20 minutes of sitting around we had the OK. And when flying out of Madrid in March last year I wrapped the bike in cling film from a supermarket and at Madrid airport Iberia unchanged on me paying €25 for a cardboard bike for a bike: the cardboard box was for a small mountain bike. Fortunately I'd removed the entire front fork assembly so the bike did actually slip right in: it was a tense moment.
Feel really sorry for the OP.

Navrig
Posts: 77
Joined: 9 Apr 2018, 12:46pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby Navrig » 23 May 2019, 12:53pm

The following text is unashamedly copied from a thread on another bike forum. The link to the thread is also below.

I often reply to threads regarding this topic. You can tell from my nik what I do for a living!

What it comes down to is how much protection you want for your pride and joy. You will find anecdotal evidence all over the place about bike bags being just fine, “my bike has travelled lots and it’s never been damaged”, etc etc.

The fact is, you can get lucky repeatedly and even travelling like a cycle tourist with just a CTC plastic bag you may not suffer damage. BUT, you need to be lucky EVERY time in order for your bike to be rideable at the other end of a commercial flight if you don’t minimise the risk with a solid, non crushable (within reason) bike box such as the BBA.

Hold loading is invariably contracted out by the vast majority of airlines to a ground handling agency. This is because they can do it cheaper for a large number of airlines rather than each airline employing their own staff and purchasing or leasing the required equipment and the associated maintenance.

Handling agents are driven down on price by the airline negotiators and have a vested interest in therefore doing the job as cheaply as possible. This often leads to equipment that regularly breaks down and staff that aren’t really motivated and turn over regularly. You can probably see where this is going.

As pilots, one of the two crew will fly the aeroplane from A to B and the other will carry out the pre-flight external inspection and organise the fuelling etc. When I am that non-flying pilot I often see bags that have fallen off the conveyor (belt loader) which the baggage handlers pick up at the end and put back on the loader/ chuck into the hold. These bags have often fallen off the loader as they reach the hold door, catch on the frame and topple off. Depending on the aeroplane type, this hold door can be anything from about 5’ off the ground to 10-15’ on the big wide body jets. Most wide body jets have palletised bags (bags are all placed in big aluminium bins and then loaded in stages), whereas typical short haul EU type flights will just have loose bags piled in the hold. These are at greater risk.

So, if your bike falls off the loader and drops 5’ plus to the ground, how well protected will it be? Are you confident it won’t be damaged? Or if it falls off the baggage cart as it is being driven out to the aeroplane on that snake of dollies? And if hit by a following dolly whilst lying on the tarmac? Think I’m being overly dramatic? Seen it a number of times. I’m as confident as I can be that my pride and joy will be safe. I choose the Bike Box Alan. And no, I’m not paid or sponsored by them. I’ve also seen lots of pros using the BBA too. There’s a reason for that.

So good luck with a bag, you’ll need luck every day using one if you travel frequently.

PP

P.s. I should add, that loose bags in the hold can move about, but are restrained by net to stop them shifting significantly en masse. Your bike bag/ box will be in there with them. So, experience turbulence and bags can move, including if you are unlucky, lots of bags shifting and ending up on your bag/ box. Similarly on take off and landing things can move about and your pride and joy could end up with a significant weight of solid suitcases upon it. Would you be confident of your bike bag/ box maintaining its integrity fully and preventing any of that weight being put directly onto your bike? We all know how strong carbon fibre is in its intended use, but quite fragile to forces from unintended directions...


https://forum.bikeradar.com/viewtopic.p ... #p20523577

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6431
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 May 2019, 1:07pm

I think that's a slightly longer version of my post a couple upthread isn't it :lol:

...but yes, I violently agree.

Navrig
Posts: 77
Joined: 9 Apr 2018, 12:46pm

Re: Abandoned holiday - RyanAir terms and conditions

Postby Navrig » 23 May 2019, 1:16pm

Bonefishblues wrote:I think that's a slightly longer version of my post a couple upthread isn't it :lol:

...but yes, I violently agree.


Agreed although his post may carry a little more weight as he claims to be a pilot and sees it all first hand.

A cycling buddy tells the story of his marmotte trip. At Geneva his flight arrived at the same time as a flight from the middle east. He collected his bike from the outsize luggage place at the same time as a guy (from the ME) who had his P&J in a decent brand hard case. He opened the case to find his Cervelo with a snapped chainstay.

I am not sure how it could have happened. Maybe it was a scam to make an insurance claim but the frame was broken.