Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
Bez
Posts: 1199
Joined: 10 Feb 2015, 10:41am
Contact:

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby Bez » 18 Jun 2019, 4:21pm

So if you keep your brain switched on you probably won't need to make a claim, same as anywhere else. If you slip over on wet steel then you might get hurt, same as anywhere else.

Basically you're free to apply your own risk assessment, but if it doesn't align with their insurers' view then they'll probably reduce their liability and might not cover you at all. Which, in the context, seems reasonable. To be honest I'm probably conkers-deep in insurance one way or another anyway.

As long as I can get on a ferry without dressing up like Bob The Builder it's fine with me. I'm a big boy, I'm happy to take responsibility for staying on my feet.

We should probably draw a line under the bickering and move on ;)

slowster
Posts: 1025
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby slowster » 18 Jun 2019, 4:27pm

bretonbikes wrote:OK now here it is from the Horse's mouth and much as I feared...

Hi Geoff,

Steve has confirmed that it is a requirement by our insurers and something we have to bring to cyclists’ attention. They can choose to ignore it but if they have an accident in the port/going on and off the ship without a helmet on and are injured, any claim will be affected.

Regards,


So it isn't a 'please' it's 'compulsory' unless you are prepared to give up rights to full insurance cover. Not at all clear from the text of that .pdf.

Firstly, when they say 'any claim will be affected', what they really mean is that the lawyers acting on behalf of them/their insurers would seek to use contributory negligence (or the equivalent in France/Belgium) to reduce any award made against them by a court, or to achieve a lower settlement if it were negotiated out of court.

Secondly, insofar as the port is concerned this is only relevant and applicable if the cyclist is claiming for injury or damage from the port on the grounds that the port was negligent. Whilst it's possible that a cyclist's lawyers might seek to hold the port (partially) liable if they felt there was a good case to argue that the road layout was badly designed or the port was in some other way partially responsible for the accident, it's more likely that an injured cyclist would be suing the driver of the vehicle that hit them. I would not be surprised if the lawyers for the driver/their insurer similarly sought to claim contributory negligence if the cyclist was not wearing a hi-viz vest or a plastic hat (if the injury was to the head), but I'm not sure the fact that the port required these would make a difference in that scenario.

Ivor Tingting
Posts: 856
Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 9:57pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby Ivor Tingting » 18 Jun 2019, 6:13pm

bretonbikes wrote:OK now here it is from the Horse's mouth and much as I feared...

Hi Geoff,

Steve has confirmed that it is a requirement by our insurers and something we have to bring to cyclists’ attention. They can choose to ignore it but if they have an accident in the port/going on and off the ship without a helmet on and are injured, any claim will be affected.

Regards,


So it isn't a 'please' it's 'compulsory' unless you are prepared to give up rights to full insurance cover. Not at all clear from the text of that .pdf.


Presumably it would have to be a head injury limited to an area of the head typically covered by a helmet? So a nose or chin injury and you're still covered BB! Unless they require a full face helmet to be worn like a motorcycle helmet.
They've probably got you marked now - potential trouble maker :wink: .
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

pete75
Posts: 11965
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby pete75 » 18 Jun 2019, 7:07pm

bretonbikes wrote:
pete75 wrote:
bretonbikes wrote:
The only thing about this is that no other passenger in any circumstances is expected to wear/buy protective gear of any kind. On several of the routes foot passengers walk through the port - cross traffic lanes (as Plymouth) etc yet they don't need anything. Yet cyclists are being asked to 'ensure' they buy a helmet for passing through the port?

Just a bit of thoughtlessness I think when writing what someone thought was 'common sense' without actually thinking about it. I'll get it clarified.


I bet motorcyclists are expected to wear helmets.


Because it's a legal requirement in the UK and France... Just like you're supposed to wear your seatbelt.


Not on private land like the ferry terminal. Not many folk wear a seatbelt when riding a motorbike either. They're really more for car drivers. Next time you see a motorbike parked up have a good search for it's seatbelt. My betting is you won't find one.

ossie
Posts: 664
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby ossie » 18 Jun 2019, 8:31pm

So the end result is that we can ignore it.

Carry on.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5923
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Jun 2019, 9:42pm

Storm in a teacup? The situation is exactly the same as a car hitting you on public roads as a car hitting you on the docks. If the fault is motorist's their lawyers will try to reduce the insurer's bill by contributory negligence.

First aim is to be safe and careful in the docks, just like on the roads. Second is to not have an accident needing insurance and lawyers (similar to first aim). Third aim is enjoy your tour.

mattsccm
Posts: 2764
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby mattsccm » 18 Jun 2019, 9:48pm

Having watched a stack of cyclists use BF a fortnight ago I can say that it is not enforced.
Might I suggest that they are treating cyclists like all other pedestrians within the loading area. Of course most of them work there. They waer hi viz, hard hats and vehicles have ligjts. At least they are not asking for ateel toe cap cycling shoes. Bikes are pushed down the car ramp or at least were on the two ferries I used.
Not defending it but I see where it comes from.

Bez
Posts: 1199
Joined: 10 Feb 2015, 10:41am
Contact:

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby Bez » 18 Jun 2019, 10:56pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Storm in a teacup? The situation is exactly the same as a car hitting you on public roads as a car hitting you on the docks. If the fault is motorist's their lawyers will try to reduce the insurer's bill by contributory negligence.


Right. So BF's pointers make no difference. So this thread is a storm in a teacup, no? :)

User avatar
syklist
Posts: 1205
Joined: 19 May 2008, 6:43pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby syklist » 19 Jun 2019, 6:57am

Bez wrote:Right. So BF's pointers make no difference. So this thread is a storm in a teacup, no? :)


From my distant position in the Land of the Frozen Wastes far in the North it looks to me like the cause of the storm is the way English is used by the English.

I remember as a lad reading the signs below the windows in trains. They always used this kind of language "Please refrain from leaning out of the window while the train is in motion". This always struck me as odd as it left a certain ambiguity when compared to "Leaning out of the window while the train is moving is forbidden" which was the actual message the sign was trying to convey* and which was the type of language that similar signs in German trains used ("...ist verboten").

The email from Britanny Ferries uses the "Please ensure..." language which clearly can be interpreted as "You are required to..." by some English speakers and "It would be nice if you could..." by others.

The first poster clearly interpreted the meaning as "You are required to..:" whereas Britanny Ferries have now confimed that the information is closer to the "It would be nice if you could..." end of the spectrum.

Obviously the wording of the information is unclear and Britanny Ferries ought to have clearly stated "They can choose to ignore it but if they have an accident in the port/going on and off the ship without a helmet on and are injured, any claim will be affected."

Edit *or maybe wasn't...
So long and thanks for all the fish...

mattheus
Posts: 902
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby mattheus » 19 Jun 2019, 9:01am

Bez wrote:So if you keep your brain switched on you probably won't need to make a claim, same as anywhere else. If you slip over on wet steel then you might get hurt, same as anywhere else.

Basically you're free to apply your own risk assessment, but if it doesn't align with their insurers' view then they'll probably reduce their liability and might not cover you at all. Which, in the context, seems reasonable. To be honest I'm probably conkers-deep in insurance one way or another anyway.

As long as I can get on a ferry without dressing up like Bob The Builder it's fine with me. I'm a big boy, I'm happy to take responsibility for staying on my feet.

We should probably draw a line under the bickering and move on ;)


A good summary!

HobbesOnTour
Posts: 373
Joined: 20 Feb 2017, 5:12pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby HobbesOnTour » 19 Jun 2019, 9:20am

bretonbikes wrote:OK now here it is from the Horse's mouth and much as I feared...

Hi Geoff,

Steve has confirmed that it is a requirement by our insurers and something we have to bring to cyclists’ attention. They can choose to ignore it but if they have an accident in the port/going on and off the ship without a helmet on and are injured, any claim will be affected.

Regards,


So it isn't a 'please' it's 'compulsory' unless you are prepared to give up rights to full insurance cover. Not at all clear from the text of that .pdf.


Thanks Breton (Geoff?) for clarifying this. We're lucky to have had this direct communication.

We can now make up our own minds having been supplied with the relevant information.

mattheus
Posts: 902
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby mattheus » 19 Jun 2019, 10:01am

IMO it would be wrong to say it's compulsory - that would be something without which you won't be allowed on board. (or, I guess, off board!)

And another thanks to "Breton (Geoff?)" !

pete75
Posts: 11965
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby pete75 » 19 Jun 2019, 5:53pm

HobbesOnTour wrote:
bretonbikes wrote:OK now here it is from the Horse's mouth and much as I feared...

Hi Geoff,

Steve has confirmed that it is a requirement by our insurers and something we have to bring to cyclists’ attention. They can choose to ignore it but if they have an accident in the port/going on and off the ship without a helmet on and are injured, any claim will be affected.

Regards,


So it isn't a 'please' it's 'compulsory' unless you are prepared to give up rights to full insurance cover. Not at all clear from the text of that .pdf.


Thanks Breton (Geoff?) for clarifying this. We're lucky to have had this direct communication.

We can now make up our own minds having been supplied with the relevant information.


The rights and wrongs of a claim are decided by the courts not by a ferry company or their insurer. It's a common fallacy to think that compensation isn't payable if the defendant isn't insured for the risk. The courts make a compensation order against the defendant. In the absence of insurance cover and if the ferry company is liable it will have to pay whatever the court orders it to pay.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5923
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2019, 6:32pm

Interesting the idea of language ambiguity. I had a conversation with a Latvian PhD student once who's grasp of the English language was probably better than most natives!

Anyway his example of "could you pass the salt cellar, please" Actually means "are you able to pass the salt cellar?" if English is a serving language for many. His answer to that question an Englishman asked him was simply "yes! He is able to do that!"

User avatar
syklist
Posts: 1205
Joined: 19 May 2008, 6:43pm

Re: Brittany Ferries Now Require Helmet, High Vis and Lights

Postby syklist » 20 Jun 2019, 11:04am

Tangled Metal wrote:Interesting the idea of language ambiguity. I had a conversation with a Latvian PhD student once who's grasp of the English language was probably better than most natives!

Anyway his example of "could you pass the salt cellar, please" Actually means "are you able to pass the salt cellar?" if English is a serving language for many. His answer to that question an Englishman asked him was simply "yes! He is able to do that!"

We play that game at home at meal times.

"Can you pass me the salt"
"Yes!"
"Hmmmm. Can you pass me the salt now?"
"Yes!"
"Are you going to do it now?"
"Mmmmm, OK, there you go."
So long and thanks for all the fish...