hamish wrote:My impression is that the Plus panniers are more abrasion resistant than they look and probably more abrasion resistant than the classic versions. The answer is probably that both are tough - but differently so.
Ortlieb reckon that the Plus fabric is more abrasion resistant, and it's also meant to have a longer life in terms of aging and UV. On the other hand, the smooth Classic material wipes clean easier, and it's not like it wears or rots quickly.
hamish wrote:Well you have a load of answers, reports of experience and opinions above...
A few observations from me.
Roll or flap? I prefer flap for big rear panniers on tours where immersion during river crossings, etc is unlikely. I like roll tops for front panniers (I only ever use them on a tandem now) or use as rear panniers on offroad tours where I end up wading rivers, etc.
potter wrote:Ok so after visiting Spa cycles and getting my hands on all the contenders, I decided on the ORTLIEB bike packer plus ( black so they look like canvas) . They seemed well made and fixings looked bomber . Now it’s a case of penny saving for a front rack and some sport packer plus and a bar bag. Crikey, and I thought hillwalking was expensive. Thanks for all the great advice guys
Whereas if I were to buy Ortliebs, I'd indulge in the opportunity to choose from a variety of colours! I don't suppose mix and match is allowed...
mjr wrote:I'm pretty sure it's PU according to the repair kits.
I checked and apparently it is PVC but they try to make it as inoffensive as possible. But like many people I'm feeling less and less comfortable about the production of man-made polymers and that could make me lean towards products that use less of them. At least appearance wise, Carradice cotton bags seem to have more natural materials.
Is the Carradice cotton produced sustainably though?
It would be hard to make it less sustainable than PVC.
To be honest I don't massively fret over this. A pannier, even if pvc, strikes me as the ultimate re-usable bag, especially if you use it for shopping and don't use a car.
Sweep wrote:To be honest I don't massively fret over this. A pannier, even if pvc, strikes me as the ultimate re-usable bag, especially if you use it for shopping and don't use a car.
I agree. I have several sets of Ortlieb PVC panniers, all very well made and probably going to see me out. But I was just musing about what I might consider if I were buying today.
potter wrote:Thanks for all the help so far. Ortliebs certainly do have many fans out there. Im curious as to whether the roll top closure is 100% necessary on a bike?.
IMO yes - assuming they are done up properly. You know you can dump the bags on the ground in a hurry and not worry about making them stand up the right way. If they roll into a puddle or other small body of water then the stuff inside and, just as important the inside of the panniers themselves will not get wet.
The other advantage of the roll top closure is that, if at the end of a dry day you do some shopping you can undo the tops of the panniers and put stuff in them and close them with the top cross strap. The bags are no longer watertight but give you a good few litres of extra carrying space.
Sweep wrote:To be honest I don't massively fret over this. A pannier, even if pvc, strikes me as the ultimate re-usable bag, especially if you use it for shopping and don't use a car.
I agree. I have several sets of Ortlieb PVC panniers, all very well made and probably going to see me out. But I was just musing about what I might consider if I were buying today.
Fair do's. Thanks for nice reply. It is possible my red front ortliebs are pvc. Also very probably some blackroller rears I bought second hand as they have older style fittings. I bought these just to use for shopping really (i have bikepacker pluses for touring). It will be a long long time I am sure before either of those two end up as landfill. I'll be landfill before, and maybe even the person who inherits them.
Last edited by Sweep on 28 Jul 2019, 10:03am, edited 1 time in total.
Thehairs1970 wrote: Is the Carradice cotton produced sustainably though?
It would be hard to make it less sustainable than PVC.
Not sure that is entirely true. I present the worst case scenario, the Aral sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea I guess organically grown cotton, grown close to the pannier factory, waterproofed with beeswax from local beehives would definitely be more environmentally friendly than PVC.
If you are going to use oil for anything then high quality products that last for 20+ years is probably the most environmentally friendly thing to do with it. Our Ortliebs are a mere 13 years old and still nicely waterproof.
The environmental impact of panniers is not just limited to production. If your non-roll top non-waterproof panniers end up leaking during a rainy spell then you will end up having to use generated/produced energy to dry your stuff out.
I remember on trip up Setesdal where we met another cyclist a few times. We commented after the first four days of rain that it had been so damp that we ended up with condensation on the inside of the inner tent. His reply was that his panniers with rain covers had let so much water in through the back of the panniers that he ended up having to rent a hut for a night to dry out all his stuff.
potter wrote: and, just as important the inside of the panniers themselves will not get wet.
.
Unless you smash a large jar of gherkins inside them. As I did once - i do all my shopping by bike. Proved to me they are totally waterproof though. Was unaware of the problem until I opened the pannier.
Thehairs1970 wrote: Is the Carradice cotton produced sustainably though?
It would be hard to make it less sustainable than PVC.
Not sure that is entirely true. I present the worst case scenario, the Aral sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea I guess organically grown cotton, grown close to the pannier factory, waterproofed with beeswax from local beehives would definitely be more environmentally friendly than PVC.
If you are going to use oil for anything then high quality products that last for 20+ years is probably the most environmentally friendly thing to do with them. Our Ortliebs are a mere 13 years old and still nicely waterproof.
The environmental impact of panniers is not just limited to production. If your non-roll top non-waterproof panniers end up leaking during a rainy spell then you will end up having to use generated/produced energy to dry your stuff out.
I remember on trip up Setesdal where we met another cyclist a few times. We commented after the first four days of rain that it had been so damp that we ended up with condensation on the inside of the inner tent. His reply was that his panniers with rain covers had let so much water in through the back of the panniers and he ended up having to rent a hut for a night to dry out all his stuff.
I ended up renting a caravan due to wet tent but it had nothing to do with the panniers. It was overnight condensation in very rainy and (crucially) humid conditions, which meant the tent was packed away the next morning, in drizzle, with everything damp. So we phoned ahead to rent a caravan for the night. It worked out fine.
potter wrote: and, just as important the inside of the panniers themselves will not get wet.
.
Unless you smash a large jar of gherkins inside them. As I did once - i do all my shopping by bike. Proved to me they are totally waterproof though. Was unaware of the problem until I opened the pannier.
I take it you just put the pannier in the fridge until the gherkins had been eaten?
Bmblbzzz wrote:That's a sensible question but I don't think Carradice give any information about the source of the cotton used in their canvas, so it's probably no more or less sustainable than the cotton used in clothing. The decisive question for pannier choice would be whether cotton is more sustainable, less polluting, less energy-consuming, etc, than PVC.
Yes they do. Thew website says they get it from Halley Stephensons in Dundee.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
syklist wrote: IMO yes - assuming they are done up properly. You know you can dump the bags on the ground in a hurry and not worry about making them stand up the right way. If they roll into a puddle or other small body of water then the stuff inside and, just as important the inside of the panniers themselves will not get wet.
The other advantage of the roll top closure is that, if at the end of a dry day you do some shopping you can undo the tops of the panniers and put stuff in them and close them with the top cross strap. The bags are no longer watertight but give you a good few litres of extra carrying space.
Bmblbzzz wrote:That's a sensible question but I don't think Carradice give any information about the source of the cotton used in their canvas, so it's probably no more or less sustainable than the cotton used in clothing. The decisive question for pannier choice would be whether cotton is more sustainable, less polluting, less energy-consuming, etc, than PVC.
Yes they do. Thew website says they get it from Halley Stephensons in Dundee.
So it does. https://www.carradice.co.uk/79-informat ... nce-fabric But that doesn't tell us where the cotton comes from or how it is grown, which is the important thing in this consideration. It might say on the Halley Stephensons website but ICBA to look there because, as someone pointed out above, a well made cycle pannier uses only a small amount of material and will last for decades. If you're worried about sustainability in your life (good to be), there are other places to start.
