rear pannier advice needed

[pete75]

That's a sensible question but I don't think Carradice give any information about the source of the cotton used in their canvas, so it's probably no more or less sustainable than the cotton used in clothing. The decisive question for pannier choice would be whether cotton is more sustainable, less polluting, less energy-consuming, etc, than PVC.

Yes they do. Thew website says they get it from Halley Stephensons in Dundee.

So it does. https://www.carradice.co.uk/79-informat ... nce-fabric
But that doesn't tell us where the cotton comes from or how it is grown, which is the important thing in this consideration. It might say on the Halley Stephensons website but ICBA to look there because, as someone pointed out above, a well made cycle pannier uses only a small amount of material and will last for decades. If you're worried about sustainability in your life (good to be), there are other places to start.

Presumably it comes from cotton fields and this webpage describes how cotton is grown https://www.cotton.org/pubs/cottoncounts/story/how.cfm

[syklist]

Presumably it comes from cotton fields and this webpage describes how cotton is grown https://www.cotton.org/pubs/cottoncounts/story/how.cfm

That website for some reason fails to mention the history of injustices in the US cotton industry both during and after the slave trade ended. No mention of the environmental impact of cotton production on the Aral sea either.

Apparently 20,000 litres of water are needed to produce 1kg of cotton.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/cotton

[Sweep]

Presumably it comes from cotton fields and this webpage describes how cotton is grown https://www.cotton.org/pubs/cottoncounts/story/how.cfm

That website for some reason fails to mention the history of injustices in the US cotton industry both during and after the slave trade ended. No mention of the environmental impact of cotton production on the Aral sea either.

Apparently 20,000 litres of water are needed to produce 1kg of cotton.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/cotton

Hang about.
We are supposed to avoid cotton because of the slave trade?
I fear your antennae are shot.
I won't be debating brexit with you, that's for sure.

[pete75]

Presumably it comes from cotton fields and this webpage describes how cotton is grown https://www.cotton.org/pubs/cottoncounts/story/how.cfm

That website for some reason fails to mention the history of injustices in the US cotton industry both during and after the slave trade ended. No mention of the environmental impact of cotton production on the Aral sea either.

Apparently 20,000 litres of water are needed to produce 1kg of cotton.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/cotton

The article is about present day production in the USA and doesn't pretend to be a history of worldwide cotton production. Had it been so your points would have some value.

[syklist]

Presumably it comes from cotton fields and this webpage describes how cotton is grown https://www.cotton.org/pubs/cottoncounts/story/how.cfm

That website for some reason fails to mention the history of injustices in the US cotton industry both during and after the slave trade ended. No mention of the environmental impact of cotton production on the Aral sea either.

Apparently 20,000 litres of water are needed to produce 1kg of cotton.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/cotton

The article is about present day production in the USA and doesn't pretend to be a history of worldwide cotton production. Had it been so your points would have some value.

"That website"... is what I typed.

Click on the link to the right entitled "History of cotton".

https://www.cotton.org/pubs/cottoncount ... /index.cfm

[syklist]

Presumably it comes from cotton fields and this webpage describes how cotton is grown https://www.cotton.org/pubs/cottoncounts/story/how.cfm

That website for some reason fails to mention the history of injustices in the US cotton industry both during and after the slave trade ended. No mention of the environmental impact of cotton production on the Aral sea either.

Apparently 20,000 litres of water are needed to produce 1kg of cotton.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/cotton

Hang about.
We are supposed to avoid cotton because of the slave trade?
I fear your antennae are shot.
I won't be debating brexit with you, that's for sure.

When considering the impact of oil based pannier materials I think it is important to take into account the (historical) environmental damage of the oil industry. Try reading up about the oil industry's impact on the Niger delta, NOx emmissions from diesel engines, global warming etc. History is one way to check up on oil companies who would like to present themselves as clean and environmentally friendly. The same goes for companies in the cotton supply chain. The effects of the slave and sharecropping era are still being felt by communities in the US. The Aral sea is still depleted.

Why is it important to take a world view? Well, the cotton industry as with the oil industry operates in global markets. Any increase in demand/use impacts these global markets. Our world is still an oil based one in terms of energy and products and our clothing industries still use an awful lot of cotton. If you are going to use cotton as a basis for your products then you might want to make sure that your cotton is sourced from efficient producers who reduce losses of waste products to the environment and respect their employees rights.

However as far as I am aware there is no single standard for "fair trade cotton" nor any single standard to track the origin of cotton. See here for a study into this problem https://www.fairlabor.org/sites/default/files/imce/images/cottonproject_report2008-2010.pdf

It could be that Halley Stephensons have their own tracking systems in place to ensure that they only buy in cotton from the better producers. If so then you have some idea as to how environmentally/worker friendly your Carradice cotton panniers are, taking into account all factors and can check this against the impact of plastics (production and supply chain) used by Ortlieb and others in their panniers.

Or you can just accuse people of having wonky antenna.

[pete75]

That website for some reason fails to mention the history of injustices in the US cotton industry both during and after the slave trade ended. No mention of the environmental impact of cotton production on the Aral sea either.

Apparently 20,000 litres of water are needed to produce 1kg of cotton.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/cotton

Hang about.
We are supposed to avoid cotton because of the slave trade?
I fear your antennae are shot.
I won't be debating brexit with you, that's for sure.

When considering the impact of oil based pannier materials I think it is important to take into account the (historical) environmental damage of the oil industry. Try reading up about the oil industry's impact on the Niger delta, NOx emmissions from diesel engines, global warming etc. History is one way to check up on oil companies who would like to present themselves as clean and environmentally friendly. The same goes for companies in the cotton supply chain. The effects of the slave and sharecropping era are still being felt by communities in the US. The Aral sea is still depleted.

Why is it important to take a world view? Well, the cotton industry as with the oil industry operates in global markets. Any increase in demand/use impacts these global markets. Our world is still an oil based one in terms of energy and products and our clothing industries still use an awful lot of cotton. If you are going to use cotton as a basis for your products then you might want to make sure that your cotton is sourced from efficient producers who reduce losses of waste products to the environment and respect their employees rights.

However as far as I am aware there is no single standard for "fair trade cotton" nor any single standard to track the origin of cotton. See here for a study into this problem https://www.fairlabor.org/sites/default/files/imce/images/cottonproject_report2008-2010.pdf

It could be that Halley Stephensons have their own tracking systems in place to ensure that they only buy in cotton from the better producers. If so then you have some idea as to how environmentally/worker friendly your Carradice cotton panniers are, taking into account all factors and can check this against the impact of plastics (production and supply chain) used by Ortlieb and others in their panniers.

Or you can just accuse people of having wonky antenna.

Is the rant over?

From what they say about quality I'm sure they do buy their materials from the better producers ie the ones who produce high quality raw materials.

[horizon]

To be honest I don't massively fret over this.
A pannier, even if pvc, strikes me as the ultimate re-usable bag, especially if you use it for shopping and don't use a car.

I agree. I have several sets of Ortlieb PVC panniers, all very well made and probably going to see me out. But I was just musing about what I might consider if I were buying today.

+1 (actually in effect +2).

It gladdens my heart to hear people arguing over the environmental benefits of cotton duck versus PVC. At least it gets a mention. All my panniers are Karrimor Cordura (essentially nylon) and they will outlast me. But on the whole, I think it Is a counsel of perfection. Having said that, we do have a large box of old rucksacks and holdalls awaiting a trip to the household "recycling" centre. They will be stripped of useful buckles and straps, some material and some will be retained as tool bags etc. The remaining carcasses will be incinerated (to produce electricity). It isn't a bad way to use petroleum.

But back to panniers. I chose Karrimor over Carradice around 20 years ago and have bought just second-hand Karrimors ever since, so it's a sort of recyclng. Ortliebs weren't AFAIR so available then but I don't like them anyway (it's tactile thing to do with PVC but I would recommend them to others). The reason I decided against Carradice was the aluminium bar that holds the fixings. I don't know if they still do that but I found it scratchy.

But if we are having a vote on this, then I want to stick up for cotton duck. Cotton can be a dreadful crop but it can also be much better. And when it gets nearer to the end of its useful life, it is nearer to thee, my God. And it is so much nicer (IMV) than PVC. Having said that, and given that panniers are used on bicycles and last a very long time, I think we are debating about angels dancing on the head of a pin (and that's coming from me, who hardly holds back when it comes to green matters).

[Sweep]

Having said that, and given that panniers are used on bicycles and last a very long time, I think we are debating about angels dancing on the head of a pin (and that's coming from me, who hardly holds back when it comes to green matters).

At the risk of things going in circles, agree with you entirely.

I am pretty sure that some of the puritans who debate the endless ins and outs of these things wouldn't stand up to too much scrutiny of their own environmental impact to the same searchlight degree. I mean how could they? We must all just do the best we can.

I too have a habit of buying second hand spares of stuff once I find something I like.

On a more mundane/practical level.

Are your Karrimors the ones that use the odd slot-together thing for downtubes of the rack?

And the top clips with the slightly flimsy looking blue plastic hook/clip?

If so how do you find the latter holds up?

I have a large pair of Karrimors using that set-up and also a small pair - bought in shop sales sometime last century.

Have since bought another small set second hand, partly for more supplies of those slightly worrying looking top clips.

For of course they are no longer available.

I don't use these panniers for touring - just for shopping and day rides.

oh - I know what you mean about that Carradice bar - I'm not really keen on it though perhaps have a grudging fondness for its concept as an example of old fashioned British product engineering.

[ossie]

I've just put an order in for a pair of Carradice Carradry rear panniers.

https://www.carradice.co.uk/bags/pannie ... niers-pair

On offer at Spa for £62 !

[Bmblbzzz]

Those old Karrimor panniers do look impressive whenever I see them. Unfortunately I could never afford them when they were being made.

[horizon]

Are your Karrimors the ones that use the odd slot-together thing for downtubes of the rack?

Yes, most of them (I have a couple of earlier ones that have an elastic thread and clip). I simply don't bother with them. I found them tricky to fix to the rack or remove (although easy to use) but I also questioned whether they are really needed. I'm not sure why panniers have the lower fixing - yes, they can swing a bit, but not much (unless someone has some ghastly tale about what could happen ... ).

And the top clips with the slightly flimsy looking blue plastic hook/clip?

The top clips seem to be much stronger than they appear. I've never had a broken one but actually I've got some spares anyway. The problem I have is finding the right screw to fix them on (I posted a thread about screw sizes some while back). You can use double hooks (i.e. four per side) if you want. The best thing is that they don't require a specialist fitting (if you don't use the lower fitting), will work instantly on any rack and transfer seamlessly from bike to bike.

If so how do you find the latter holds up?

Generally the attachment system seems fine (and very easy to use). I rate the bigger problems on these panniers as general fabric wear (I don't think the Cordura fabric is as good as Carradice's cotton duck) and I had a backing plate rivet break which I replaced with a nut, bolt and washer. What I do like is the feel of the material and ease of use. Of course, they're not waterproof. I would rate my panniers (several pairs, large, medium and small, all Karrimor) as one of the best aspects of my cycling over the last twenty years, trouble free, amazingly versatile and actually transforming the bikes I use into really useful vehicles. It's the reason I find bike packing difficult to comprehend.

[Bmblbzzz]

Arguably, you are bikepacking. Whether your bags are big rectangles or some other shape is a matter of what suits you and your load.

[horizon]

Arguably, you are bikepacking. Whether your bags are big rectangles or some other shape is a matter of what suits you and your load.

Well, bikepacking as in bags strapped to the bike without racks. What I am saying is that the clip-on system worked really well, particularly when transferring from bike to bike.

[Sweep]

Arguably, you are bikepacking. Whether your bags are big rectangles or some other shape is a matter of what suits you and your load.

mm - I think you know the difference between bikepacking as it is generally understood and panniers on a rack or two and some stuff maybe lashed on top.

I am also not into bikepacking - am sure it has some niche applications but so much of it strikes me as fashion and an excuse to sell some more expensive bags (which you'd be hard pressed to do the weekly shop with.

On fashion - views confirmed the other day in London - I saw some guy at a station, I swear, wearing an odd lycra combo which colour matched his bike and his bags.

It was all I could do to stop myself licking him.

Thanks horizon for the replies/info on the old karrimors. I may get some more and bits second hand. My small green ones make wonderful day ride bags. I have two sets of those.

My large ones are more plasticky - wouldn't trust the material on tour but are great for shopping.