Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
Mike Sales
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby Mike Sales » 10 Apr 2020, 10:19am

Psamathe wrote:
nsew wrote:.... You might get carved up or shot along the way but hey ho. .....

You might take such an attitude but for many it would not be a sensible way to travel.

Ian


That is what some countries are like for the locals. If you stay in a safe tourist enclave you will not learn much about them.

Psamathe
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby Psamathe » 10 Apr 2020, 10:25am

Mike Sales wrote:.....
My tours do start from my bike shed. There is much of interest to learn and enjoy locally and in this country, too. And people to learn from.
Don't you become a tourist, not a traveller, when you buy a ticket to your "destination" ?

I think that comes down to use of language and that different people will use the same word with different meanings. For example, my cycle tours start with me getting on my bike, but I then buy a train ticket, then a ferry ticket so does that change the word?

My personal use or tourist vs traveller is based on the nature of the travel. My use is that a traveller tends to travel independently making their own hotel and travel arrangements as they go almost on a day by day basis with no real itinerary (but maybe a few specific places to be visited). Travelling is more about going to the bus station, buying your ticket on a "local bus" where you are likely to be the only westerner, arriving somewhere and making your own plans to visit whatever it is you went there for. Whereas a tourist would tend to pay a tour company to make the arrangements for them, tourist just turning-up at given place at given time to be transported, shown, told about, accommodated, etc. all sorted by others as a package. "Tourism" (as I use the word) tends to be shorter time whereas "travel" tends to be for longer trips. "Tourism" tends to focus on entries in guide books whereas whilst "travel" can include such visits it also involves a fair amount of stuff not in the guide books.

But use of words is a personal thing so I'd not argue my personal use if "right" or anything.

Ian

pwa
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby pwa » 10 Apr 2020, 10:31am

If you are clearly a visitor engaged in recreation, rather than working, to locals you are a tourist. You might be a nice and respectful tourist, but you are still a tourist. And it doesn't have to be abroad for this to be true. It applies in all places where tourists go, whether they be thrill seekers on expedition in the Himalayas or families kayaking in the Lake District.

Psamathe
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby Psamathe » 10 Apr 2020, 10:37am

Mike Sales wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
nsew wrote:.... You might get carved up or shot along the way but hey ho. .....

You might take such an attitude but for many it would not be a sensible way to travel.

Ian


That is what some countries are like for the locals. If you stay in a safe tourist enclave you will not learn much about them.

As you say, some countries are not sensible places to travel in. It's a pity but for those who enjoy travelling and learning about other countries and cultures do not feel obligated to travel and learn about every country. I find some countries and regions far more appealing and interesting than others (ignoring the "You might get carved up or shot along the way but hey ho"). There is no rule that travellers must go and learn about every country.

Even within countries there can be regions you (as a visitor) cannot travel and sometimes even in the regions you can travel you end-up with very frequent Police checks. That does not mean you are staying in a "tourist enclave". And your experience is unavoidably different from that, but it always will be due to your background, your wallet, etc.. To pretend otherwise is naive but you can still visit and appreciate and gain understanding. E.g. Myanmar, lots of interesting parts of the country you can't get to (closed or "permit" required and nobody will take you and you'll be stopped by Police checks if you try anyway). You can only stay at hotels approved to take foreigners. But you can go for a walk, chat to people (and if you are prepared to raise sensitive issues (gently) you can sometimes find people can be very open to discuss what is happening).

Ian

nsew
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby nsew » 10 Apr 2020, 11:00am

Tourism
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nsew
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby nsew » 10 Apr 2020, 11:01am

Contd
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nsew
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby nsew » 10 Apr 2020, 11:02am

Contd
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Psamathe
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby Psamathe » 10 Apr 2020, 1:00pm

And I could post vast numbers of photos showing a very different face of travelling (including some of incredibly famous places virtually deserted). You seem to want to focus on specific (and in my experience minority) of negative examples. You can take all sorts of things related to most things and find negative examples e.g. cycling. That you can post some negative examples does not condemn everything, all aspects, etc.

Ian

nsew
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby nsew » 10 Apr 2020, 1:36pm

Been traveling the world since before Rough Guide & Lonely Planet issued their first guides. I know what a deteriorating ****-show tourism has become.

Psamathe
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby Psamathe » 10 Apr 2020, 1:50pm

nsew wrote:Been traveling the world since before Rough Guide & Lonely Planet issued their first guides. I know what a deteriorating ****-show tourism
has become.

So full of knowledge yet you seem to have evoked "they despise and ridicule you behind your back" (or was that your observation of how they reacted to others and not you?).

There are many forms of travel and tourism in many different areas with different considerations yet you seem to lump them all together under a few examples where it is negative. When I recently travelled round Thailand I cam across no evidence of the "sex industry" you highlight as a negative impact of mass tourism (but then I didn't bother going to Pattaya). In Cambodia I had no interest in KTV and the bigger issue I saw in this regard was expats (but the reaction of locals to this was "interesting" and surprising).

It's far more complex than a few photos of crowds and massive generalisations covering all types of travel/tourism across the entire planet.

But maybe it's good that you (by your own assessment) know it all for everywhere in the world and can enlighten us with you wisdom. Given how your more recent experience conflicts and is so different from my own I suggest maybe you are travelling in such a manner to become part of such negative situations. Choice of place, manner of travel, how you deal with locals, etc. ... the whole world is not as you describe, not even the particularly famous bits.

Ian

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foxyrider
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby foxyrider » 10 Apr 2020, 3:02pm

i've never seen the attraction and hence need, to do long haul flights to ride a bike in some hot sticky location and indeed, whilst there are locations around the globe i would certainly like to visit, i never will. Europe, for me and many others is infintely more accessable and affordable as a destination, particularly given most peoples opportunity to holiday is of quite short duration. I've flown and i've ferried and the choice has often been dictated by destination/time/cost.

Try a trip to Scandinavia without flying for example, without adding days/£'s to the project - there are no ferries any longer, going via the low countries isn't a real alternative if you only have a week/ten days at your disposal, adding extra days travel could kill many a tour, oh and even Euro region railfares can be a strain on the budget. We don't all have the luxury of fitting work around travel, most of us don't even get to choose when we can holiday.

Unless there is good reason, say a particular museum/castle etc, i try to avoid 'tourist traps', and remember you don't have to be a furrener to be a tourist. I've visited and stayed in places where i've been the only foreign visitor they've had all year or even longer, i've searched out stuff that even the locals don't visit very often. i hope very much, that i'll be able to take my grandson on similar trips in the coming years, whether we ferry/ride/fly/train will, i'm sure, be something that will depend as much on finance as conscience.

Next year i want to return to Sweden, not being able to fly some element of the outward/inward journey could add at least 2 days to an already 2 day journey as well as extra £'s spent on accomodation/trains etc.

I may be able to take a trip later this year, foreign or not, i'm sure the hotels/atttractions/campsites/restaurants will all be grateful to see me wherever i go and however i get there.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

nsew
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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby nsew » 11 Apr 2020, 12:15pm

Looking back in the thread it appears you were triggered by these words. That’s what’s known as ‘a tell’.

“Let’s spare a thought for the grotesque middle aged Western sex tourists that frequent Asia - there’s a few billion important $ they’re losing.”


Psamathe wrote:
nsew wrote:Been traveling the world since before Rough Guide & Lonely Planet issued their first guides. I know what a deteriorating $h&%-show tourism
has become.

So full of knowledge yet you seem to have evoked "they despise and ridicule you behind your back" (or was that your observation of how they reacted to others and not you?).

There are many forms of travel and tourism in many different areas with different considerations yet you seem to lump them all together under a few examples where it is negative. When I recently travelled round Thailand I cam across no evidence of the "sex industry" you highlight as a negative impact of mass tourism (but then I didn't bother going to Pattaya). In Cambodia I had no interest in KTV and the bigger issue I saw in this regard was expats (but the reaction of locals to this was "interesting" and surprising).

It's far more complex than a few photos of crowds and massive generalisations covering all types of travel/tourism across the entire planet.

But maybe it's good that you (by your own assessment) know it all for everywhere in the world and can enlighten us with you wisdom. Given how your more recent experience conflicts and is so different from my own I suggest maybe you are travelling in such a manner to become part of such negative situations. Choice of place, manner of travel, how you deal with locals, etc. ... the whole world is not as you describe, not even the particularly famous bits.

Ian

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Re: Corona virus - impact on European tours in next 3 months?

Postby Vorpal » 11 Apr 2020, 12:20pm

Thread has been locked due to having become an off-topic sniping contest.
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