Sustrans no good for touring

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
mikeymo
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mikeymo » 23 Jul 2020, 3:17pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
PaulaT wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Strava Heatmap is representative of the type of cyclists who use Strava. These are rarely tourists but it does at least show that something is cyclable. Whether the Garmin version is more representative of tourists, I don't know.


Cycle-able for whom though? A steeply-graded route favoured by an ultra-fit young rider on a lightweight road bike looking to test themselves to the max probably isn't the sort of route the average middle-aged person on a laden touring bike would want to attempt. We have no way of knowing the ability or motivation of those uploading their tracks.


That is true of every map and every guide ever produced.


Do you mean every map and guide aimed at cyclists?

It's certainly not true of maps aimed at car drivers. I don't think my car sat nav has ever sent me down an un-navigable route. Ditto for paper maps, pre sat nav.

Whereas Cycle Streets (for instance) sent me on a totally unsuitable track recently. At least in my opinion. In the spirit of making things better I edited the relevant section in OSM. And noticed that somebody else, after my edit, thinks it's that section is fine. Hey ho.

When it comes to sat nav I suppose cyclists are at least in one way similar to HGV drivers, in that what works for the "average" traveller might not work for us.

Oldjohnw wrote:It is the responsibility surely, of the cyclist to read the map and study the terrain etc and make the best decision they can with the most available information. This usually involves using a number of sources.


And there's the problem. Cycling will continue to be a minority activity if, as well as buying lots of special "gear", cyclists are also expected to pore over "sources", a number of them in fact, to work out something as simple as getting from this place to that place. I daresay a lot of the sort of cyclists who frequent this forums enjoy that sort of thing. I don't. I'd like to get on my bike and go there, guided by some sort of device, on a cycle friendly route. I can make a journey like that in my car.

djb
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby djb » 23 Jul 2020, 3:36pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
PaulaT wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Strava Heatmap is representative of the type of cyclists who use Strava. These are rarely tourists but it does at least show that something is cyclable. Whether the Garmin version is more representative of tourists, I don't know.


Cycle-able for whom though? A steeply-graded route favoured by an ultra-fit young rider on a lightweight road bike looking to test themselves to the max probably isn't the sort of route the average middle-aged person on a laden touring bike would want to attempt. We have no way of knowing the ability or motivation of those uploading their tracks.


That is true of every map and every guide ever produced. It is the responsibility surely, of the cyclist to read the map and study the terrain etc and make the best decision they can with the most available information. This usually involves using a number of sources.


As you say John, making decision from various sources is key.
Exactly why I started coming on here, to get acquainted with the forum and at some point in the future, to get some reliable opinions on route options for when I'm eventually able to get over to your neck of the woods and cycle around to visit family.

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mjr
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mjr » 23 Jul 2020, 3:41pm

mikeymo wrote:Whereas Cycle Streets (for instance) sent me on a totally unsuitable track recently. At least in my opinion. In the spirit of making things better I edited the relevant section in OSM. And noticed that somebody else, after my edit, thinks it's that section is fine. Hey ho.

Appeal it, please, for the good of cyclists who follow you. If you'd like advice on less controversial edits, there's some on here who might help.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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PaulaT
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby PaulaT » 23 Jul 2020, 4:00pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
PaulaT wrote:Cycle-able for whom though? A steeply-graded route favoured by an ultra-fit young rider on a lightweight road bike looking to test themselves to the max probably isn't the sort of route the average middle-aged person on a laden touring bike would want to attempt. We have no way of knowing the ability or motivation of those uploading their tracks.


That is true of every map and every guide ever produced. It is the responsibility surely, of the cyclist to read the map and study the terrain etc and make the best decision they can with the most available information. This usually involves using a number of sources.


I absolutely agree.

mikeymo
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mikeymo » 23 Jul 2020, 4:28pm

PaulaT wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
PaulaT wrote:Cycle-able for whom though? A steeply-graded route favoured by an ultra-fit young rider on a lightweight road bike looking to test themselves to the max probably isn't the sort of route the average middle-aged person on a laden touring bike would want to attempt. We have no way of knowing the ability or motivation of those uploading their tracks.


That is true of every map and every guide ever produced. It is the responsibility surely, of the cyclist to read the map and study the terrain etc and make the best decision they can with the most available information. This usually involves using a number of sources.


I absolutely agree.


I absolutely disagree. It's OK if cycling's your hobby, but not for the ordinary Jo.

With modern sat nav every motorist can get in a car, turn it on, and drive. And will get there.

It may be a "rewarding" part of cycling, for the enthusiasts here, to spend time studying a "number" (for chrissakes!) of sources, then planning a journey. Jolly good, let's all just stay in splendid isolation, a brave band of happy two-wheeled adventurers, willing to spend many fulfilling hours planning our latest jaunt. That's what cycling will stay as, a narrow minority interest.

If we want cycling to become mainstream, then ordinary people need to do it. That's ordinary people who don't spend hours here. Who just want to get on a bike, and go some place. Never mind all the kerfuffle about helmets making cycling appear "dangerous", faffing about with maps, websites, cycling apps and trying to coalesce the information into a route that may, if you're lucky, be OK, is just as much of a deterrent to ordinary people.

mikeymo
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mikeymo » 23 Jul 2020, 4:35pm

djb wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
PaulaT wrote:
Cycle-able for whom though? A steeply-graded route favoured by an ultra-fit young rider on a lightweight road bike looking to test themselves to the max probably isn't the sort of route the average middle-aged person on a laden touring bike would want to attempt. We have no way of knowing the ability or motivation of those uploading their tracks.


That is true of every map and every guide ever produced. It is the responsibility surely, of the cyclist to read the map and study the terrain etc and make the best decision they can with the most available information. This usually involves using a number of sources.


As you say John, making decision from various sources is key.
Exactly why I started coming on here, to get acquainted with the forum and at some point in the future, to get some reliable opinions on route options for when I'm eventually able to get over to your neck of the woods and cycle around to visit family.


And exactly why mass adoption of cycling as transport is doomed. I'm taking my son to start his first job, smack in the heart of London, on Sunday. Which forum should I visit to find out the best driving route? Of course, it's a joke, I don't need to do I? I'll turn on the Sat Nav, and it'll get me there, like it always has for the last 15 years. I don't have to make "decisions from various sources".
Last edited by mikeymo on 23 Jul 2020, 4:44pm, edited 1 time in total.

mikeymo
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mikeymo » 23 Jul 2020, 4:42pm

mjr wrote:
mikeymo wrote:Whereas Cycle Streets (for instance) sent me on a totally unsuitable track recently. At least in my opinion. In the spirit of making things better I edited the relevant section in OSM. And noticed that somebody else, after my edit, thinks it's that section is fine. Hey ho.

Appeal it, please, for the good of cyclists who follow you. If you'd like advice on less controversial edits, there's some on here who might help.


I don't think they've changed my edit, to be fair. I think the "edit" that somebody else made was just a comment that it was OK. Can you put photos in OSM edit comments? That might be a way for somebody to look at it.

But maybe I'm just a crap cyclist. As a couple of people in a local cycling group thought it was OK. Mind you, one on a MTB and another on a '"gravel" bike.

But other cycle routers avoided it, so I suspect it's Cycle Streets' algorithm. Cycle Travel avoided it. I can't for the life of me work out why Cycle Streets is often quoted as the gold standard. I find the iPhone app a bit meh, the web screen terrible, and this bizarre routing put me off completely. I know the area, so it wasn't a problem, but if Cycle Streets sent somebody with 4 panniers that way at the end of a 50 mile day, they wouldn't be happy.

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mjr
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mjr » 23 Jul 2020, 5:21pm

mikeymo wrote:Can you put photos in OSM edit comments? That might be a way for somebody to look at it.

I'm not sure, but you could probably upload them to a personal page on their wiki and refer to it from the changeset discussion.
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby Bmblbzzz » 23 Jul 2020, 5:34pm

PaulaT wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Strava Heatmap is representative of the type of cyclists who use Strava. These are rarely tourists but it does at least show that something is cyclable. Whether the Garmin version is more representative of tourists, I don't know.


Cycle-able for whom though? A steeply-graded route favoured by an ultra-fit young rider on a lightweight road bike looking to test themselves to the max probably isn't the sort of route the average middle-aged person on a laden touring bike would want to attempt. We have no way of knowing the ability or motivation of those uploading their tracks.

Cyclable full stop. Not necessarily cycle-able to any one individual but passable by cycle. You might have to walk up a steep hill or contend with heavy traffic but you're unlikely to encounter any obstacles that prevent the passage of an average bicycle, and probably not even a trike or trailer etc, such as a stile or deep mud. As Strava mainly appeals to riders of road bikes with sporting pretensions, they tend to avoid routes with those features.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby Oldjohnw » 23 Jul 2020, 5:55pm

Obviously, everything that goes wrong is always someone else's fault.
John

mikeymo
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mikeymo » 23 Jul 2020, 6:03pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Obviously, everything that goes wrong is always someone else's fault.


Were you thinking of anything in particular, or is that just a general observation?

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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby Oldjohnw » 23 Jul 2020, 6:06pm

mikeymo wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Obviously, everything that goes wrong is always someone else's fault.


Were you thinking of anything in particular, or is that just a general observation?


Oh just general. Life sucks. When I play the piano and get something wrong it must be Beethoven's fault. If I ever get lost.. well, anybody's guess.
John

mikeymo
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mikeymo » 23 Jul 2020, 6:26pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Obviously, everything that goes wrong is always someone else's fault.


Were you thinking of anything in particular, or is that just a general observation?


Oh just general. Life sucks. When I play the piano and get something wrong it must be Beethoven's fault. If I ever get lost.. well, anybody's guess.


Very clever. Very passive aggressive.

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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby Oldjohnw » 23 Jul 2020, 6:27pm

I never really knew what passive aggressive meant. I think perhaps I now understand.
John

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mjr
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Re: Sustrans no good for touring

Postby mjr » 23 Jul 2020, 6:42pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:As Strava mainly appeals to riders of road bikes with sporting pretensions, they tend to avoid routes with those features.

In other places, I get flamed for making that observation, but locally, most of the A roads shine as brightly on the Strava Heatmap as the cycle routes even when the cycle route is the same length or shorter and on much more beautiful roads. Not most of the busy trunk roads or the notoriously lethal but the rest - and I can easily see where the weekly "ten" and club training rides are held.
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