Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
Matt25
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Joined: 9 Aug 2012, 2:06pm

Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby Matt25 » 19 Nov 2020, 6:05pm

I use 7 speed on my commuter and tourer and find it's great for pretty much everything. I use Deore LX thumbies which have been in almost constant use for thirty years now and still work like they did when they were new, but I respect your preference for downtube shifters. I think the move away from 7 speed for quality kit was a shame as it's basically all most riders need, hardly ever needs adjustment and if you have a friction option will always work to get you home.

I'd definitely be looking to put a new back wheel on there with a 7 speed freehub. 7 speed stuff is still relatively easy to source and cheap - lots of good second hand and NOS on ebay. Your local bike recycling place may have a good second hand wheel you can just fit. I've bought really good (NOS) Mavic rims from my local Bike Station in Edinburgh for £4 and good deore hubs for around the same.

Matt

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foxyrider
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby foxyrider » 19 Nov 2020, 7:02pm

just to point out the blinding obvious, you can put a 7sp cassette on an 8/0/10 sp hub, you just need a spacer behind it. My current steed has run d/t shifters 7 on 8 cassette for over 10 years without issue and its done a lot of miles 8) So don't worry too much about a 7sp hub and the dishing arguments really are largely hyperbole, If the build is done well there is no downside, many thousands of people use 8sp and above for luggage abused bikes with no issues whatsoever - might be different with a new Campag 13 speed but you are at the opposite end of things!

Oh and when it was suggested you fit a steel rear rack they didn't mean one of those wire things but a tubular thing a la Tubus, bit of an investment but they are pretty much indestructible!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

nsew
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby nsew » 19 Nov 2020, 7:10pm

Of course the bike would greatly benefit from a solid set of freshly built wheels for such a journey. Originally it was an excellent frame built up with lower end parts, especially so the wheels. 72 DT Swiss double butted spokes at £36, 72 brass nipples at £8, NOS STX hubs at £50, Sputnik rims at £50. Total £144. 26” wheels in 7 speed build up very easily if you put your mind to it. I recommend Roger Musson’s E-book. Otherwise a wheelbuilder would knock them up for something like £30 or £40. Spa will build up a set of Sputniks with DEORE hubs for £175 which with a spacer you can run your 7 speed and “upgrade” to 8,9 or10 later. However the front wheel is unlikely to fail if you bang some fresh grease and bearings in there and the rear could take just a new hub, cassette and nipples. There’s a £10 STX in NOS on eBay.
Last edited by nsew on 19 Nov 2020, 7:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

nsew
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby nsew » 19 Nov 2020, 7:12pm

Hyperbole is claiming a rear wheel with 4mm less dish is hyperbole.

Matt25
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby Matt25 » 19 Nov 2020, 7:59pm

foxyrider wrote:just to point out the blinding obvious, you can put a 7sp cassette on an 8/0/10 sp hub, you just need a spacer behind it


This is a very good point and what I've done on my bike.

Bice
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby Bice » 20 Nov 2020, 11:12am

I have put a Tiagra 32 spoke wheel on the back of the Carlton Courette. It is 32 spoke, but as I found it on the tip I am not complaining. It fits fine with a Sram 14-32 7-speed and a couple of plastic spacers off an old 10-speed block. I also took out a 5mm spacer off the axle. The chainline is excellent and the dish is fine as well with the wheel lining up perfectly with the frame. I have used an 8 speed Campag wheel with freehub with my 7-speed Ciocc, but hated it. The wheel being slightly off centre irritated me, and the chainline was not perfect. I was delighted to get shot of it for a proper 7-speed freewheel Miche wheel. With a 25mm tyre it survived 230kms in a day's ride mainly on badly rutted white roads in the Eroica.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte frame, 42, 32, 22 7-speed on Tiagra
Favourite: Lazzaretti steel 1996 10-speed 48/34
Trek 1.7 10-speed triple 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34 7-speed used for Eroica in Italy
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7-speed triple

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 20 Nov 2020, 11:48am

Hi,
Using an eight speed shifter on a seven speed cassette.
The end sprockets will be 0.6 mm out of alignment.
With modern chains and the amount of slopp in the pulley wheels and chain clearance, Bearing in mind that with When you shift gear you don't have to shift the full distance for the chain to catch/swap gear.
Then no wonder that it will work quite Satisfactorily on most set ups.

Ideal no but there you go.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

thirdcrank
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby thirdcrank » 20 Nov 2020, 12:01pm

As with most threads of this type you are concerned if not worried to the extent of sleepless nights. You obviously know a lot about bikes generally and the eventual breakages of axles on multi-speed freewheel hubs in particular. As you have already mentioned you could carry spares and you certainly seem to have the competence to sort it out.

Perhaps it's more a matter of asking yourself if the continuing niggle will spoil your ride. Are you going to be checking to see if it's the q/r holding everything together? Day rides / commuting = no sweat. Why take any of the pleasure out of a tour?

Bice
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby Bice » 20 Nov 2020, 1:25pm

thirdcrank wrote:Perhaps it's more a matter of asking yourself if the continuing niggle will spoil your ride. Are you going to be checking to see if it's the q/r holding everything together? Day rides / commuting = no sweat. Why take any of the pleasure out of a tour?


There is some really good information on this thread, and I am grateful for it. I don't know MTBs or 26 inch wheels; I had never heard of STX hubs; or Ryde; or Sputnik.

I have only just noticed that these 26 wheels are just drilled through, whereas all the 700c wheels I have made for my road bikes are double-walled and eye-letted (For myself, Mavic Pros; for my wife, a couple of Pashley ones; and hybrid cheapies for friends).

I think I could chance it with the front wheel as it is, especially if I get the weight to a reasonable level. I don't think risking it with the rear as it is is a good idea: removing freewheels is always a bit touch-and-go with the hopeless threading, and I have had to go down to the LBS several times to remove them (ie when a spoke breaks).

I think I would feel a right fool stuck in the middle of nowhere unable to remove the freewheel. So I have to build a rear wheel, and might as well do a front while I am at it. In fact, I will do the front first to get a bit of practice (I last made up a 10-speed rear Campagnolo Record hub 18 months ago: the dish is so extreme that you have to begin dishing from the off or you won't make it.) I am a follower of the great Roger Musson.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte frame, 42, 32, 22 7-speed on Tiagra
Favourite: Lazzaretti steel 1996 10-speed 48/34
Trek 1.7 10-speed triple 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34 7-speed used for Eroica in Italy
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7-speed triple

Bice
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby Bice » 20 Nov 2020, 3:45pm

hamster wrote:I even have a 36H 7s Shimano RM20 freehub rebuilt with new bearings for £10 posted UK. PM if interested.

Marin MTB frames make fab tourers (it's what I've ridden for the past 25 years), and it sounds like a great trip.


Very much appreciate this and thanks for the offer.

I have ordered the set of SLX on eBay and Sputnik rims from Spa. It recommends Sapim strong spokes on the drive side and Sapim Race on the non-drive and front. I have never used Sapim before, only DT Swiss for decent wheels, and any old stuff lying around for cheap ones. But I reckon Spa will know their stuff.

Now like any good Roger Musson student, I don't order the spokes until I have the rims and hubs to measure first ...
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte frame, 42, 32, 22 7-speed on Tiagra
Favourite: Lazzaretti steel 1996 10-speed 48/34
Trek 1.7 10-speed triple 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34 7-speed used for Eroica in Italy
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7-speed triple

hamster
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Joined: 2 Feb 2007, 12:42pm

Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby hamster » 20 Nov 2020, 4:52pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Using an eight speed shifter on a seven speed cassette.
The end sprockets will be 0.6 mm out of alignment.
With modern chains and the amount of slopp in the pulley wheels and chain clearance, Bearing in mind that with When you shift gear you don't have to shift the full distance for the chain to catch/swap gear.
Then no wonder that it will work quite Satisfactorily on most set ups.


Which means that all the cable errors etc have to be taken up only 0.4mm left of jockey float.
Indeed, you have to set it up in the middle of the cassette, not from the smallest cog. Yet did you know that Shimano systems have longer pull for the first shift to take up all the slack?

It's probably fine on a road bike in the dry. Bitter experience with MTBs says it's a waste of time. If you tolerate rattly gears in the same way that many seem blissfully unaware of scraping front mechs then go ahead and fill your boots.

nsew
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby nsew » 20 Nov 2020, 5:08pm

Good man. Spa are recommending Sapim Strong on the drive side due to the dish caused by a larger 8 sp freehub. With a 7 speed this is unnecessary. Here’s the tech doc for the STX MC32

https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/stor ... -1485C.pdf

Notice on the drive side there is a 1.5mm spacer (4). This can be removed and fitted to the NDS side giving a further net gain of 3mm decrease in dish (or thereabouts) resulting in an almost dish free wheel which in turn can use identical double butted spokes on both sides. The Sapim Race are a good choice.

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andrew_s
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby andrew_s » 20 Nov 2020, 5:26pm

nsew wrote:Notice on the drive side there is a 1.5mm spacer (4). This can be removed and fitted to the NDS side giving a further net gain of 3mm decrease in dish (or thereabouts) resulting in an almost dish free wheel which in turn can use identical double butted spokes on both sides.


Would not moving the spacer also move the cassette 1.5 mm closer to the dropout?
Usually this would result in the chain fouling the dropout whilst in top gear.

nsew
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby nsew » 20 Nov 2020, 5:35pm

andrew_s wrote:
nsew wrote:Notice on the drive side there is a 1.5mm spacer (4). This can be removed and fitted to the NDS side giving a further net gain of 3mm decrease in dish (or thereabouts) resulting in an almost dish free wheel which in turn can use identical double butted spokes on both sides.


Would not moving the spacer also move the cassette 1.5 mm closer to the dropout?
Usually this would result in the chain fouling the dropout whilst in top gear.


Yes it moves the cassette towards the dropout but there is typically sufficient clearance there to begin with. From personal experience on two bikes, I’ve been able to remove a 2mm DS spacer (XT M732) and clear the dropout without issue.

Gearoidmuar
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Re: Should I worry about freewheel axle?

Postby Gearoidmuar » 20 Nov 2020, 5:45pm

PT1029 wrote:I repair bikes for a living.
Over 20+ years I have replaced countless broken rear axles on bikes with screw on freewheels - most for not over weight people who use their bikes for commuting only.
I have NEVER seen a broken cassette hub rear axle (or even bend).
Better design, and probably better metal too.


Cycling 40y. Absolutely agree. Never broke an axle on a cassette hub axles. Broke loads on freewheel hubs. Not only that, if you don't spot the broken axle your chainstay can break due to metal fatigue. I'd a few of these.