EU Vaccine Passport

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st599_uk
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EU Vaccine Passport

Post by st599_uk »

German international service Deutsche Welle are reporting that agreement has been reached that the EU will have Vaccine Passports this summer.

https://www.dw.com/en/eu-coronavirus-su ... a-56701869
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Andrew-l
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Andrew-l »

It will happen. And holidays will be the thing that create enough pressure to make it happen.

Unfortunately, I suspect that in about July the UK public will realise that they'll need some form of certificate to go on Holiday, and our wonderfully competent Government will panic, ask one of their mates to design something bespoke that will be ready in late September (albeit not fully working), but which will not be accepted by any other country.

Just my guess, based on current experience :D
Jdsk
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Jdsk »

Andrew-l wrote:Unfortunately, I suspect that in about July the UK public will realise that they'll need some form of certificate to go on Holiday, and our wonderfully competent Government will panic, ask one of their mates to design something bespoke that will be ready in late September (albeit not fully working), but which will not be accepted by any other country.

Never mind the functionality, feel the colour!

; - )

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Psamathe »

I agree it will certainly happen for international travel and I agree the UK will be "late to the table". It is disappointing they [UK] are not participating in the EU scheme being discussed (e.g. be involved from the start and have some input on it's design/operation).

I feel it an acceptable mechanism for domestic use as well certainly once everybody has had the opportunity to receive a vaccination. I think it quite reasonable for a pub/cinema/public venue/camp site/etc. to take sensible public health measures to protect their customers/visitors. Where people have made a choice not to be vaccinated that choice they freely made has many aspects beyond their deciding not to protect themselves e.g. they have in effect decided that the risk to others should they become asymptomatic spreaders is acceptable - despite those being put at risk having to no say about accepting that risk. So unvaccinated not being allowed into venues where they could represent a spread risk is no more than a public health protection measure.

I regard the arguments about those who medically cannot be vaccinated as easily addressed. Where there are sound medical grounds meaning an individual cannot be vaccinated then they receive an exemption certificate from their GP (just as is possible for e.g. Yellow Fever vaccinations) and that counts as a valid certificate.

I do also wonder if we should allow those who are vaccinated to use vaccination certificates within the UK to have greater freedom before the entire population has been offered vaccination. Many have suffered the effects of isolation so I think it selfish for somebody to say "they can't have more freedom because I have not yet been vaccinated". e.g. many elderly social clubs where the elderly have been suffering isolation and many will soon have completed their vaccinations, why should they be denied meeting-up just because I have not yet received my vaccination?

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mjr
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by mjr »

Psamathe wrote:I do also wonder if we should allow those who are vaccinated to use vaccination certificates within the UK to have greater freedom before the entire population has been offered vaccination. Many have suffered the effects of isolation so I think it selfish for somebody to say "they can't have more freedom because I have not yet been vaccinated". e.g. many elderly social clubs where the elderly have been suffering isolation and many will soon have completed their vaccinations, why should they be denied meeting-up just because I have not yet received my vaccination?

Because it's ageism, ableism and discrimination against certain religions. Unless we also have green certificates saying that people have not yet been offered a vaccine, are medically unable to take one, or are followers of a faith that does not allow injections.

This all also seems like a bit of a bonanza for forgers.

They should take the money that would have been spaffed up the wall (or given to chums, more likely) on vaccination certificates and instead use it to vaccinate more people sooner, or speed up testing.
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Psamathe
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I do also wonder if we should allow those who are vaccinated to use vaccination certificates within the UK to have greater freedom before the entire population has been offered vaccination. Many have suffered the effects of isolation so I think it selfish for somebody to say "they can't have more freedom because I have not yet been vaccinated". e.g. many elderly social clubs where the elderly have been suffering isolation and many will soon have completed their vaccinations, why should they be denied meeting-up just because I have not yet received my vaccination?

Because it's ageism, ableism and discrimination against certain religions. Unless we also have green certificates saying that people have not yet been offered a vaccine, are medically unable to take one, or are followers of a faith that does not allow injections.

I'm uncertain about aspects of that (genuinely uncertain, not disagreeing). How would I feel being put at greater risk of catching a serious disease because somebody else has rejected medical science in preference for "the power of prayer"? Not convinced I'd be very sympathetic were I to suffer long-Covid thanks to somebody having religious beliefs that "it's all in the mind". That said, are there many religious groups (in the UK) who are rejecting vaccination on religious grounds (I thought Christian Scientists were generally regarded as anti-medical treatment but that don't mandate on vaccination - my understanding)?

Would vaccination passports at present be agist or is it the vaccination program that is agist? There are many aspects to the pandemic that that could be classed as agist or ableist - so maybe a little more freedom a bit sooner might be regarded as a counter to shielding that has been expected of those groups?

mjr wrote:This all also seems like a bit of a bonanza for forgers.

They should take the money that would have been spaffed up the wall (or given to chums, more likely) on vaccination certificates and instead use it to vaccinate more people sooner, or speed up testing.

I think that vaccination passports would need to be an international system that may (or may not) be adopted domestically. I suspect that "money that would have been spaffed up the wall (or given to chums, more likely)" will be spaffed up the wall to Westminster Mates anyway - it's just a matter of them finding excuses so if it's not vaccine passports it will be something even less tangible like "focus groups" or "market research" or "PPE" (that does not work), etc. I'd assume that an EU scheme would have some mechanisms to reduce forgery - hence I'm disappointed UK seem to be all over the place at the moment rather than joining the EU discussions.

I'm not arguing for such passports but am genuinely uncertain. I regard the international travel and domestic use as separate and think those who medically cannot take the vaccine as a non-issue and would be granted an exemption (just as for Yellow Fever).

Ian
Stevek76
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Stevek76 »

There is little worth in even thinking about a passport until there's solid evidence that being vaccinated prevents transmission. At present, unless I've been missing some studies, we only have some evidence that it reduces transmission and but are still some way from establishing that it prevents it to the point that a vaccinated individual presents no risk rather than carrying a significant risk of being an asymptomatic carrier. Indeed the early pfizer numbers released the other day indicates 3-4 times lower transmission with one dose, while that's a very significant drop, given how transmissible this disease is it's still going to remain quite highly transmissible?

This most recent mention from some leaders in the EU strikes me as more of the kind of optimistic talk heard here as well, I'm not sure they'll go anywhere.
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st599_uk
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by st599_uk »

mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:This all also seems like a bit of a bonanza for forgers.


As the IATA trial certificate is a digital certificate validated against a server that stores vaccination and test results, I think it would be hackers that are needed.
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willem jongman
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by willem jongman »

I am sure it will come, though not yet, because too few people have been vaccinated thus far. However, by the time a large proportion of the population will have been vaccinated, the pressure will become irresistable. The widely shared sentiment in the EU is that such a passport is best introduced as an inclusive international effort: that would make it most useful. Whether the UK will stick to its insularity and go it alone is up to the UK. If it does, travel will be quite inconvenienced. The EU vaccination passport will certainly be an EU wide scheme, and hopefully more inclusive than that.
Last edited by willem jongman on 26 Feb 2021, 5:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote:At present, unless I've been missing some studies...

I don't think that you have.

Jonathan
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Psamathe »

Report the other day that might (indirectly) resolve the ethical issues around domestic vaccine passports?

For me it's about public safety rather than the vaccine. What is being sought is reassurance that e.g. others in the pub/cinema/camp site/etc. are not spreading Covid. Unfortunately the crossflow test reliability seems inadequate for this purpose but a new test (still being developed) is looking far more promising so it might mean that those who don't want to be vaccinated (and thus don't have vaccine passports) could opt for "on-entry" tests instead meaning no exclusion.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/23/new-covid-test-delivers-results-three-times-faster-than-lateral-flow wrote:Prototype Covid test delivers results three times faster than lateral flow
...
The electrochemical test, which uses nanobodies taken from the camelid group of animals, returns a result within 10 minutes and, in an early test of 300 samples, proved 90% as accurate as a PCR test for both positive and negative results.....

The test does not require processing in a laboratory and the result can be read on a smartphone.
...

I imagine it also mean no need for exemption certificates for those who medically cannot be vaccinated.

With a large number vaccinated (with vaccination passports) on-entry testing becomes much more practical as numbers needing the test would be so much lower.

Of course, still early but a step in the right direction.

Ian
Jdsk
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Jdsk »

Naonobodies are fascinating, both as to why camelids have them and similar animals don't and as reagents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-domain_antibody

But I'd be very wary of relying on that novel assay system making much difference in the near future.

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote:Naonobodies are fascinating, both as to why camelids have them and similar animals don't and as reagents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-domain_antibody

But I'd be very wary of relying on that novel assay system making much difference in the near future.

Jonathan

But a sign that companies are working on better rapid testing and it would at best be some time until enough people have been vaccinated (with 3 months between 1st and 2nd shots) and any domestic vaccine passport system - so more a thought that there are solutions to the ethical questions.

Ian
Stevek76
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Stevek76 »

Psamathe wrote:What is being sought is reassurance that e.g. others in the pub/cinema/camp site/etc. are not spreading Covid. Unfortunately the crossflow test reliability seems inadequate for this purpose but a new test (still being developed) is looking far more promising so it might mean that those who don't want to be vaccinated (and thus don't have vaccine passports)


You seem to be working on the assumption that being vaccinated absolutely, or even near as makes no difference absolutely prevents transmission.

Evidence to date suggests that assumption is incorrect.
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Psamathe
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Re: EU Vaccine Passport

Post by Psamathe »

Stevek76 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:What is being sought is reassurance that e.g. others in the pub/cinema/camp site/etc. are not spreading Covid. Unfortunately the crossflow test reliability seems inadequate for this purpose but a new test (still being developed) is looking far more promising so it might mean that those who don't want to be vaccinated (and thus don't have vaccine passports)


You seem to be working on the assumption that being vaccinated absolutely, or even near as makes no difference absolutely prevents transmission.

Evidence to date suggests that assumption is incorrect.

Not making that assumption but rather it's a question of degree and reducing risk. And current data apparently suggests that vaccination reduces the risk of transmission (as it reduced the risk of severe disease) https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-confirms-protection-against-severe-disease-hospitalisation-and-death-in-the-primary-analysis-of-phase-iii-trials.html. Opening up of society depends on reduction of risk (not possible to eliminate the risk) and vaccination reduces risk so allows more opening. Those who are not vaccinated have not reduced the risk so represent a higher risk but "on-entry" type testing (which again is not 100%) does reduce risk.

Ian
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