(Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand & Myanmar, don't know about Loas)
When I visited (not cycling) I was travelling local buses which mostly used main highways but looking at those roads (and the red dust) I thought how it was not a place to be cycle touring.
I've now watched some of the JaYoe video blog YouTube (there are loads so probably small %age) and he seems to be forever cycling along long straight roads with continuous heavy traffic (lots of it comprising a lot of buses and lorries).
When I non-cycle travelled I even met a French couple on their bikes (at same hotel) but my boat out early meant I never got the chance to chat with them).
But the region has a good reputation for cycle touring so am I getting the wrong impression and e.g. JaYoe just choses poor routes?
Ian
South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
I have never been there but I have a read a few journals on CGOAB and got a favourable impression of cycle touring in the north of Thailand and in Laos in the dry season, our winter. On the other hand southern Thailand sounded dull with busy roads and touristy on the coast. Cambodia also sounded dull. Somebody who has actually toured there will be along soon.......
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
I haven't ridden there for a long time, but when I did it was much the same as anywhere else. People who make incompetent route choices are condemned to ride on horribly busy roads. People who take the time and trouble to plot a decent route will enjoy quiet, beautiful roads.
One link to your website is enough. G
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
I've no idea what routes that guy chose, I haven't watched the videos, but I think you are getting the wrong impression. I have been cycling for up to 6 months every year for the last 20 odd years in that region and love it. Maybe horror stories make better videos.
Of course there are plenty of horror roads, but even on these the traffic is generally much lighter and travels slower than in the UK. Also, on these horror roads, you usually have a hard shoulder that is reserved for two wheelers so you have a sanctuary while the trucks and buses fly past. I sometimes choose to ride the main highways in Thailand and Malaysia. Very light traffic, wonderful surface and your own lane. Outside the towns, these roads have few buildings, etc and you are cycling through open country, forest, farmland, etc. Great if you want I get a move on.
Sometimes the smaller side roads have a bad surface, but there are plenty that are far better than roads in the UK. In Thailand, they are well surfaced and all numbered making navigation easy. Roads in countries like Vietnam have improved greatly in the last few years and you can usually find excellent alternatives to the main highways. My last tour was down the coast, following smaller roads, with ferries, etc. Far better than most of our cycle network. Occasionally I had to ride on the dreaded Highway 1 when the coast road disappeared, but this was only a few Kms of manic traffic (on a shoulder), then back into the quite roads.
I haven't been to Lao for a few years, but have cycled extensively there in the past. Like all of SEA they have been building and improving their roads, often funded by the Chinese. This has opened up the country and means cyclist can ride tar instead of dirt. Some of the old colonial roads were not so good as they were made of chip and seal, using pea gravel.
For me, the worst thing about these countries is what I call 'under construction'. If the authorities want to resurface or upgrade a road they just tear up tens if not hundreds of kms and then slowly go about rebuilding and resurfacing it. The road is still open to traffic, weaving it's way amongst the work. These can be very hard work on a bike, maybe cycling over rocks or gravel, or else the dreaded red dust, which turns to red slime when wet. Normally you can get some warning of this and avoid, but a few times in China I have ridden for days on these roads.
I can imagine that one of these under construction roads would make much better video than a smooth as silk highway.
..............and then there is the food. Lots of places for great tasty meals. Even the 7-11s in the service stations do good food.
...........and then there is the accommodation. Usually plenty of places to stay at reasonable prices.
Of course there are plenty of horror roads, but even on these the traffic is generally much lighter and travels slower than in the UK. Also, on these horror roads, you usually have a hard shoulder that is reserved for two wheelers so you have a sanctuary while the trucks and buses fly past. I sometimes choose to ride the main highways in Thailand and Malaysia. Very light traffic, wonderful surface and your own lane. Outside the towns, these roads have few buildings, etc and you are cycling through open country, forest, farmland, etc. Great if you want I get a move on.
Sometimes the smaller side roads have a bad surface, but there are plenty that are far better than roads in the UK. In Thailand, they are well surfaced and all numbered making navigation easy. Roads in countries like Vietnam have improved greatly in the last few years and you can usually find excellent alternatives to the main highways. My last tour was down the coast, following smaller roads, with ferries, etc. Far better than most of our cycle network. Occasionally I had to ride on the dreaded Highway 1 when the coast road disappeared, but this was only a few Kms of manic traffic (on a shoulder), then back into the quite roads.
I haven't been to Lao for a few years, but have cycled extensively there in the past. Like all of SEA they have been building and improving their roads, often funded by the Chinese. This has opened up the country and means cyclist can ride tar instead of dirt. Some of the old colonial roads were not so good as they were made of chip and seal, using pea gravel.
For me, the worst thing about these countries is what I call 'under construction'. If the authorities want to resurface or upgrade a road they just tear up tens if not hundreds of kms and then slowly go about rebuilding and resurfacing it. The road is still open to traffic, weaving it's way amongst the work. These can be very hard work on a bike, maybe cycling over rocks or gravel, or else the dreaded red dust, which turns to red slime when wet. Normally you can get some warning of this and avoid, but a few times in China I have ridden for days on these roads.
I can imagine that one of these under construction roads would make much better video than a smooth as silk highway.
..............and then there is the food. Lots of places for great tasty meals. Even the 7-11s in the service stations do good food.
...........and then there is the accommodation. Usually plenty of places to stay at reasonable prices.
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
I don't expect that I'll ever do this. But it's great to read. More, please.
Jonathan
Jonathan
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of appalling roads in this region, it's just that development in the last 20 years has greatly improved many and built up a large rural network. This means it is easy to cycle tour on acceptable to good roads almost everywhere.
The development is an interesting subject in itself. Some of the roads were built by the military and so you get good roads in out of the way places eg borders, coastal, etc. Other roads are economic. as I said, the Chinese have built a lot of roads, many across Lao to connect SW China with Thailand. These roads have opened up Lao as a cycling destination. Of course you could have cycled there before but it was pure dirt/mud plus mountains. I'm a wimp and prefer tar and mountains when touring.
The first time I went to the far NE of Cambodia in 2000 (no bike) it was fly in and despite numerous attempts to drive out in 4 wheel drives, it was eventually fly out. On my last trip a couple of years ago I rode it all on sealed roads apart from 150kms of dirt. This dirt was a new road, built by the Chinese but awaiting surfacing, hence a dustbowl. It is hard to describe how much these new connecting road will open up the local economy - while doing untold damage to local culture and the environment.
I find transport development a fascinating subject.
The development is an interesting subject in itself. Some of the roads were built by the military and so you get good roads in out of the way places eg borders, coastal, etc. Other roads are economic. as I said, the Chinese have built a lot of roads, many across Lao to connect SW China with Thailand. These roads have opened up Lao as a cycling destination. Of course you could have cycled there before but it was pure dirt/mud plus mountains. I'm a wimp and prefer tar and mountains when touring.
The first time I went to the far NE of Cambodia in 2000 (no bike) it was fly in and despite numerous attempts to drive out in 4 wheel drives, it was eventually fly out. On my last trip a couple of years ago I rode it all on sealed roads apart from 150kms of dirt. This dirt was a new road, built by the Chinese but awaiting surfacing, hence a dustbowl. It is hard to describe how much these new connecting road will open up the local economy - while doing untold damage to local culture and the environment.
I find transport development a fascinating subject.
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
simonhill wrote:Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of appalling roads in this region, it's just that development in the last 20 years has greatly improved many and built up a large rural network. This means it is easy to cycle tour on acceptable to good roads almost everywhere.
The development is an interesting subject in itself. Some of the roads were built by the military and so you get good roads in out of the way places eg borders, coastal, etc. Other roads are economic. as I said, the Chinese have built a lot of roads, many across Lao to connect up with Thailand. These roads have opened up Lao as a cycling destination. Of course you could have cycled there before but it was pure dirt/mud plus mountains. I'm a wimp and prefer tar and mountains.
The first time I went to the far NW of Cambodia in 2000 (no bike) it was fly in and despite numerous attempts to drive out in 4 wheel drives, it was eventually fly out. On my last trip a couple of years ago I rode it all on sealed roads apart from 150kms of dirt. This dirt was a new road, built by the Chinese but awaiting surfacing, hence a dustbowl. It is hard to describe how much these new connecting road will open up the local economy - while doing untold damage to local culture and the environment.
I find transport development a fascinating subject.
Not having cycled in the region
Of the countries my "favourites" would be Cambodia and Myanmar. Did some non main road trips (taxi) mid to north Cambodia and roads were OK but south from Phnom Penh (to Kampot) was terrible but road suffering what you describe as "being rebuilt" - all ripped-up and really not ridable (probably with regular soakings from the water trucks soaking the road trying to keep the dust down); also it's main highway and somebody looking to cycle along e.g. the A12 or A1 in the UK would be "discouraged".
And Myanmar a fascinating country and would love to cycle through it but e.g. no bikes allowed into Yangon (Rangoon) and the police checks and military guarding roadworks ... and the red dust. I'm sure there must be routes but I've not come across any cycle routing systems covering the region. A lot of the places I fancied visiting the military were "you can't go there ...".
But I was mostly using long distance buses/minibuses or shared taxis which naturally take the main highways.
I didn't find Thailand as interesting as the other countries, though probably better for cycling.
Ian
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
I've cycled Myanmar twice. First time in 2010 and many of the roads were more pothole than road. My second trip was 2019 and the roads were much better. Still some bad, but plenty had been widened and had good surface. Also lots of new bridges, etc. It's easy to plan a tour in Burma, as long as you don't want to go to the edges where civil war still rages and the military will bar your way.
The problem with cycling in Burma is that you can only stay in authorised accommodation. This can leave long if not impossible days. Camping, staying with locals, etc not allowed even in the relatively liberal period when I was last there. Now - no way. On my last tour I wanted to cycle through the Delta area to the coast. I stopped in a small town with 2 hotels - neither would accept me. I eventually pushed it (politely) with one saying I would just sleep in the road outside as it was impossible to reach the next town that had authorised accom. They let me stay, but I had a lengthy session with the police and immigration officials who came to see me in the evening. What japes!
The problem with cycling in Burma is that you can only stay in authorised accommodation. This can leave long if not impossible days. Camping, staying with locals, etc not allowed even in the relatively liberal period when I was last there. Now - no way. On my last tour I wanted to cycle through the Delta area to the coast. I stopped in a small town with 2 hotels - neither would accept me. I eventually pushed it (politely) with one saying I would just sleep in the road outside as it was impossible to reach the next town that had authorised accom. They let me stay, but I had a lengthy session with the police and immigration officials who came to see me in the evening. What japes!
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
simonhill wrote:I've cycled Myanmar twice. First time in 2010 and many of the roads were more pothole than road. My second trip was 2019 and the roads were much better. Still some bad, but plenty had been widened and had good surface. Also lots of new bridges, etc. It's easy to plan a tour in Burma, as long as you don't want to go to the edges where civil war still rages and the military will bar your way.
The problem with cycling in Burma is that you can only stay in authorised accommodation. This can leave long if not impossible days. Camping, staying with locals, etc not allowed even in the relatively liberal period when I was last there. Now - no way. On my last tour I wanted to cycle through the Delta area to the coast. I stopped in a small town with 2 hotels - neither would accept me. I eventually pushed it (politely) with one saying I would just sleep in the road outside as it was impossible to reach the next town that had authorised accom. They let me stay, but I had a lengthy session with the police and immigration officials who came to see me in the evening. What japes!
Ignoring the current Myanmar situation (for discussion here), I initially payed attention to the military (given how they control everything that affects you as a visitor) but fairly soon got to appreciate they can (to a degree) be ignored. Mainly learning by example of locals (e.g. when on the back of a motorbike driven by a local kid, he'd just swerve onto pavement and ride round the back of military check points). Quickly learnt that not asking and not commenting were "more successful" (after I was told "you will be interviewed by somebody tomorrow, don't leave") and getting fed-up with checking with "the ministry" and being told "no".
I actually found the ethnic minority states easier and more relaxed than the Bamar regions (but a wide range and the main ones I was in were Karen and Mon (although with far more check-points).
There were some very negative aspects and some quite fascinating aspects and I generally found the locals very open to talking about even subjects you'd think should be avoided. Maybe as a country more interesting than many others (and not all for the right reasons). Hence it's one of the countries I'd like at some point to visit again. And the possibility of cycling would have some pluses and maybe some minuses.
But the road through from Thailand (from Myawaddy/Mae-Sot border crossing) would have been horrible (red dust, no "surface") which raised questions about getting around.
Ian
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
simonhill wrote:....This can leave long if not impossible days. Camping, staying with locals, etc not allowed even in the relatively liberal period when I was last there. Now - no way. On my last tour I wanted to cycle through the Delta area to the coast. I stopped in a small town with 2 hotels - neither would accept me. I eventually pushed it (politely) with one saying I would just sleep in the road outside as it was impossible to reach the next town that had authorised accom. They let me stay, but I had a lengthy session with the police and immigration officials who came to see me in the evening. What japes!
I never had to use it but I was told in SEA monks will generally welcome you to stay the night and I found the monks in Myanmar far friendlier and much more chatty than in other countries. No idea if it applies these days and how that would fit with the Gov approved hotels only in Myanmar.
Ian
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
Staying with monks was always illegal unless you are on an authorised course (meditation, etc), but you could get away with it. As you could in unofficial GHs, etc but this could cause problems, particularly for the owner. The word was that normally if you reported to the authorities, they would find you somewhere, but this could be by putting you an bus to wherever.
The Kawkariek to Myawaddy/Mae Sot road was a classic. Mountainous, dirt and alternately one way (each day). Most cyclists used a bus to get through in time. A few years ago a lovely brand new Thai built road opened. I cycled it in a morning.
Edit The New road is from Kawkariek, I've corrected it.
The Kawkariek to Myawaddy/Mae Sot road was a classic. Mountainous, dirt and alternately one way (each day). Most cyclists used a bus to get through in time. A few years ago a lovely brand new Thai built road opened. I cycled it in a morning.
Edit The New road is from Kawkariek, I've corrected it.
Last edited by simonhill on 16 Mar 2021, 6:43pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
simonhill wrote:....
The Myawaddy > Mae Sot road was a classic. Mountainous, dirt and alternately one way (each day). Most cyclists used a bus to get through in time. A few years ago a lovely brand new Thai built road opened. I cycled it in a morning.
In a shared taxi early 2020 (Myawaddy heading west into Burma) the initial part closer to the border was OK (but with a surprising number of upturned lorries on the side of the road through the mountains) but then deteriorated to
(National Route 85)
But then I was heading south and that was a rubble track you would not have wanted to cycle on.
Ian
Re: South East Asia Roads/Traffic Question
Yes, I think I had the pleasure of that bit. It came as a bit of a shock at the end of the day. According to my notes:
0-50 good
50-70 lumpy
70-100 awful
The day overall was 105 kms and took 7 hours.
Edit: This was from Hpa-An to Kawkariek. After that the road is paved to Myawaddy and Thailand.
0-50 good
50-70 lumpy
70-100 awful
The day overall was 105 kms and took 7 hours.
Edit: This was from Hpa-An to Kawkariek. After that the road is paved to Myawaddy and Thailand.