Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
markjohnobrien
Posts: 1037
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by markjohnobrien »

Greystoke wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 11:17am My mid 90's drop bar MTB tourer conversion is basic Tange cro-mo tubing.
With racks, dynamo hub etc it weighs 16kg. Similar but much better spec new tourers are about the same weight so what's changed?
Tange is nice tubing, definitely on a par with Reynolds (although, of course it comes in differing qualities), and certainly better than the generic cro-mo you see on many brands.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
Greystoke
Posts: 482
Joined: 8 May 2018, 7:41am
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by Greystoke »

It's just plain gauge.... probably only main triangle.
But for a heavy duty tourer the weight is the same as newer touring bikes with hub dynamo etc.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by PH »

Greystoke wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 1:37pm It's just plain gauge.... probably only main triangle.
But for a heavy duty tourer the weight is the same as newer touring bikes with hub dynamo etc.
What's the question?
One steel bike frame of reasonable quality is going to weigh about the same as another. maybe a few hundred grams either way, by the time the bike is built, any difference is lost. If you find one bikes rides better than another, it's that the choices the builder or designer of that bike has made suit you better than another, the material is just one of those.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by PH »

markjohnobrien wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 12:00pm
Greystoke wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 11:17am My mid 90's drop bar MTB tourer conversion is basic Tange cro-mo tubing.
With racks, dynamo hub etc it weighs 16kg. Similar but much better spec new tourers are about the same weight so what's changed?
Tange is nice tubing, definitely on a par with Reynolds (although, of course it comes in differing qualities), and certainly better than the generic cro-mo you see on many brands.
The two Tange frames I've had, have both been 4130, as have at least two of the Reynolds frames I've had. The label isn't going to alter the steel's properties.
markjohnobrien
Posts: 1037
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by markjohnobrien »

Greystoke wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 1:37pm It's just plain gauge.... probably only main triangle.
But for a heavy duty tourer the weight is the same as newer touring bikes with hub dynamo etc.

Fair enough: I was thinking of Tange double butted.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
willem jongman
Posts: 2750
Joined: 7 Jan 2008, 4:16pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by willem jongman »

High end tubing is stronger, and hence allows thinner walls for a somewhat more responsive frame. Personally I think it is a waste not to have that on an expensive custom made to measure frame. It does not make the bike that much more expensive, as so much of the cost of the frame is labour cost, and so much of the cost of a bike is in the components. I would rather have somewhat cheaper components and a more refined frame, but that is a personal preference, I guess.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by PH »

willem jongman wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 2:40pm High end tubing is stronger, and hence allows thinner walls for a somewhat more responsive frame.
It might allow it, but the reality is that the majority of frames are made from the same gauge tubing (.8 .5 .8) in the Reynolds list that's the most common across all the tubing usually seen on touring bikes, 531, 525, 631, 725.
Responsive is a very subjective term, if you wanted to compare stiffness then tube diameter is going to make more difference that wall thickness.
markjohnobrien
Posts: 1037
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by markjohnobrien »

PH wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 2:17pm
markjohnobrien wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 12:00pm
Greystoke wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 11:17am My mid 90's drop bar MTB tourer conversion is basic Tange cro-mo tubing.
With racks, dynamo hub etc it weighs 16kg. Similar but much better spec new tourers are about the same weight so what's changed?
Tange is nice tubing, definitely on a par with Reynolds (although, of course it comes in differing qualities), and certainly better than the generic cro-mo you see on many brands.
The two Tange frames I've had, have both been 4130, as have at least two of the Reynolds frames I've had. The label isn't going to alter the steel's properties.
I don’t know what type of tubing you used (as Tange and Reynolds have different grades) but a good quality Reynolds tubing such as Optima (to use a past example) will be a higher quality (and it’s characteristics are published and transparent) than bog standard generic tubing where you don’t know the maker, and don’t know the specific tubing characteristics. Reynolds and Tange publish this information. Brand x using so-called “custom 4130” doesn’t.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by PH »

markjohnobrien wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 3:09pm Reynolds and Tange publish this information. Brand x using so-called “custom 4130” doesn’t.
I suggest you do a little more research - Reynolds 520/525 is Cr-mo 4130
colin54
Posts: 2529
Joined: 24 Sep 2013, 4:34pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by colin54 »

A informative article about Tange and another Japanese frame-tube manufacturer Ishiwata on the Retrogrouch site here.
http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/201 ... iwata.html
My '90's Saracen mid range MTB has Tange MTB double butted main frame tubes , rides nice.
Nu-Fogey
Greystoke
Posts: 482
Joined: 8 May 2018, 7:41am
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by Greystoke »

My post was more of a statement than a question.
Whether you have an old MTB concerted tourer or new technology tourer they still weigh much the same when you add racks, hub dynamo, lights etc.
So whilst technology has moved on and bikes have become lighter touring bikes are still overbuilt and for good reasons.
markjohnobrien
Posts: 1037
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by markjohnobrien »

PH wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 3:17pm
markjohnobrien wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 3:09pm Reynolds and Tange publish this information. Brand x using so-called “custom 4130” doesn’t.
I suggest you do a little more research - Reynolds 520/525 is Cr-mo 4130
You’ve completely misrepresented or not understood my post.

Obviously, Reynolds 525/520 is cro-mo and I didn’t say it wasn’t.

I was talking about the difference between branded, reputable, tubing where the characteristics are available in the public domain vis a vis generic tubing which has no published data.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
BikeBuddha
Posts: 52
Joined: 11 Aug 2019, 6:15pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by BikeBuddha »

Bonefishblues wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 8:57am
markjohnobrien wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 8:45am Dave Yates was very clear that, in his opinion, he preferred Reynolds 525/520 (one made in Britain: the other under licence in Taiwan but the same tubing) for touring bikes as having thicker walls (compared to 725) made it more resistant to dents that some touring bikes pick up.

He said that 725 was nice, built lots of bikes with it, but absolutely nothing wrong with 520/525 and he custom built enormous amounts of frames.

So, not a game changer.
Your post made me revisit the link I posted a few posts earlier. I posted the wrong one!

Here's what I meant to post, which is touring specific:

https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cy ... e-tourists
Great article... thanks.
User avatar
Sweep
Posts: 8442
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 4:57pm
Location: London

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by Sweep »

simonhill wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 8:17am I see thanks, cos last time, some pages up, he was talking 9 speed. I commented then that I didn't think they made Deore 9 speed anymore, same goes for 8 speed.

Am I wrong, or does OBW have a stock of fairly old components.
In connection with this, the front mech listed there, the FD T6000, comes up as 10 speed when I do a search.

Is there an earlier version they are using for 8 speed? Though I would have thought shimano would use different numbers.

Is 8 speed really more durable than 9?

Kinda good news if so as one of my self built tourers is 8 speed, though 700 wheels.

The advantage of 9 speed it seems to me is access to that very nice 12-36 cassette - only up to 34T available with 8 speed I think.
Sweep
cycle tramp
Posts: 3531
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Drive Belt vs Chain, Rohloff Hub vs Derailler, and other questions.

Post by cycle tramp »

BikeBuddha wrote: 21 Mar 2021, 4:15pm Hi All

I am brand new to touring and am thinking of going around the world by bike, working on organic farms along the way. If money was not an object, what features on a bike would you have?


Thank you for any help you can give.

May you be happy and free from suffering.
Firstly thanks for sharing your plans with us and I hope you keep us up to date with your adventure. It sounds good. Firstly let's not talk about what I want in a bike and let's focus you. After all this is your adventure... can I ask...
Do you cycle at the moment?
If so how many miles are you comfortable cycling in one day?
How long do you see this adventure taking?
Do you do your own maintenance?
What sort of roads, tracks or forest trails do you enjoy cycling on?
Are you comfortable getting of a bike and pushing if the hill was too steep or does the thought frustrate you?
In your adventure what roads do you see yourself cycling on?
In your adventure how many miles would you cycle between farms in a day? Would you have the finances to support riding, perhaps a week or two weeks between farms?
When you are not cycling what do you do for fun? Play a musical instrument or draw or write or read or star gaze or fly kites or what?
The reason for asking is because the type of tour you are undertaking is not your average bike tour....
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
Post Reply