European trains - sleeper service

[glucas]

Sorry, yes, it was mentioned before. The poster said the article was about the new service, but it only mentioned the new proposal from Brussels briefly. The focus was more on the London proposal (which I don't think is as anywhere near concrete to the Brussels proposals - which are plans that will probably be implemented), so is a separate story from what the man in seat 61 had revealed.

[Jdsk]

As well, at the moment there seems to be a green appetite, but in a couple of months, everybody could be back on Ryan Air and co, and the whole thing becomes a distant pipe dream.

"French MPs have voted to suspend domestic airline flights on routes that can be travelled by direct train in less than two and a half hours, as part of a series of climate and environmental measures."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ention-mps

I have no idea how this will pan out in practice.

Jonathan

[st599_uk]

As well, at the moment there seems to be a green appetite, but in a couple of months, everybody could be back on Ryan Air and co, and the whole thing becomes a distant pipe dream.

"French MPs have voted to suspend domestic airline flights on routes that can be travelled by direct train in less than two and a half hours, as part of a series of climate and environmental measures."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ention-mps

I have no idea how this will pan out in practice.

Jonathan

Germany have recently done the same, replacing flights with point-to-point rail services: https://www.railjournal.com/regions/eur ... ress-rail/

[markjohnobrien]

As well, at the moment there seems to be a green appetite, but in a couple of months, everybody could be back on Ryan Air and co, and the whole thing becomes a distant pipe dream.

"French MPs have voted to suspend domestic airline flights on routes that can be travelled by direct train in less than two and a half hours, as part of a series of climate and environmental measures."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ention-mps

I have no idea how this will pan out in practice.

Jonathan

Germany have recently done the same, replacing flights with point-to-point rail services: https://www.railjournal.com/regions/eur ... ress-rail/

Interesting.

[roberts8]

I like the idea of train travel but until the cost is down to European standards my journey to Glasgow will sadly be by plane. Maybe the government will get that we need to subsidise rail travel like other countries.

[Psamathe]

As well, at the moment there seems to be a green appetite, but in a couple of months, everybody could be back on Ryan Air and co, and the whole thing becomes a distant pipe dream.

"French MPs have voted to suspend domestic airline flights on routes that can be travelled by direct train in less than two and a half hours, as part of a series of climate and environmental measures."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ention-mps

I have no idea how this will pan out in practice.

Jonathan

Germany have recently done the same, replacing flights with point-to-point rail services: https://www.railjournal.com/regions/eur ... ress-rail/

(Off-topic - sorry) Meanwhile the UK continues to expand its airport infrastructure to support more flights

Campaigners have called for regional airport expansion to be suspended after Southampton was given the green light to extend its runway in the early hours of Saturday morning.

The decision to expand Southampton Airport’s runway was made by Eastleigh Borough Council following 19 hours of fraught deliberations.

You really wouldn't know we're hosting the next climate Change COP.

It is encouraging that some countries are acting responsibly and trying to put in place more appropriate transport.

Ian

[simonhill]

Re the French ban. It went on to say that connecting flights would still be allowed. So if coming from eg Asia or US, to Lyon, there will be a long haul flight to Paris then an internal for you. Presumably not a plane full, so what happens to spare seats.

With this exemption you'll probably find the ban only applies to fairly obscure places.

[mjr]

I thought the border checks would just use the same arrangement that currently operates at St Pancras. I guess you are assuming that other stations would be en route, assuming one could board south of London.

Eurostar border controls are currently swapped, with UK border guards in Paris and Brussels, and French border guards in St Pancras. There isn't currently space in St P arrivals to hold a full train of passengers for checking, probably not even the reduced number of a sleeper. But even if that was solved, that still only really gives you a sleeper between London and Paris or Brussels.

I'm assuming London-Brussels/Paris isn't really far enough to be an attractive sleeper because it's only 2-3h by a daytime train. If you wanted sleepers from stations further away in Europe, either you would have to set up some sort of border controls there, or make everyone alight at Lille Europe to go through its border controls, as currently happens for Eurostars from the Alps. That may be unpopular at 4-5am! I think that may be when it would be, assuming that we want the sleeper to arrive in London without getting in the way of the morning peak and then maybe travel further north against the peak flow — and then you have the problem of limited connections from St P's international lines to the UK main lines, so maybe a sleeper would use the unused Stratford International station, but that would mean the sleeper paying the whole cost of the border post and onwards from there is only currently simple-ish to the West Coast and Great Western, I think.

[simonhill]

I love sleepers and have used them a lot in Asia and a little bit in S America, but not in Europe since the 60s and 70s when I took the train a few times from Calais to South of France. Even then, you caught the 'boat' train from Victoria (?) to Folkestone, then ferry before boarding your sleeper at Calais Maritime station. Once on the train, it was great, but much like now, getting to Calais was a hassle and would be even more so with a bike.

It just seems to get less realistic that there will be a sleeper service from London. Probably better to wait for electric planes to fly you there.

[st599_uk]

I thought the border checks would just use the same arrangement that currently operates at St Pancras. I guess you are assuming that other stations would be en route, assuming one could board south of London.

Eurostar border controls are currently swapped, with UK border guards in Paris and Brussels, and French border guards in St Pancras. There isn't currently space in St P arrivals to hold a full train of passengers for checking, probably not even the reduced number of a sleeper. But even if that was solved, that still only really gives you a sleeper between London and Paris or Brussels.

I'm assuming London-Brussels/Paris isn't really far enough to be an attractive sleeper because it's only 2-3h by a daytime train. If you wanted sleepers from stations further away in Europe, either you would have to set up some sort of border controls there, or make everyone alight at Lille Europe to go through its border controls, as currently happens for Eurostars from the Alps. That may be unpopular at 4-5am! I think that may be when it would be, assuming that we want the sleeper to arrive in London without getting in the way of the morning peak and then maybe travel further north against the peak flow — and then you have the problem of limited connections from St P's international lines to the UK main lines, so maybe a sleeper would use the unused Stratford International station, but that would mean the sleeper paying the whole cost of the border post and onwards from there is only currently simple-ish to the West Coast and Great Western, I think.

It's not just Border control, it's Customs.

Currently if you're traveling with equipment, it has to be small enough to fit in to the overhead as the Customs are coming down the trains checking paperwork, there's no Customs rummaging area in the terminal. If you have anything bigger that needs a Carnet, you need to travel another way.

[Jdsk]

Thanks for all of the information: please keep it coming.

If this goes into service I'd use it for both walking and cycling trips. I'd be happy to change in eg Brussels, and the improvement I'd really like is easier booking of intact bikes onto Eurostar. Better services from Harwich in the morning would also be welcome.

Jonathan

[willem jongman]

I have probably done Harwich Hook of Holland some two hundred times (almost always on the night boat) and it is still my favourite way to travel to the UK, and certainly with a bike. I prefer to arrive a bit early, and then have a good dinner on board plus a cooked breakfast the next morning.
As for sleeper services in Europe, I have similarly liked them. In the seventies I would take the sleeper from Amsterdam to Rome and it gave you that real sense of travel. More recently we have taken the Intercity Night Line from Holland to Switzerland a few times on family cycling holidays and it worked a treat. So I cannot wait for these to return in a big way.
And all of this will be much more attractive with faster and more comfortable rolling stock such as is being planned. Plus, for internediate distances, the better international connectivity between high speed train services will also be a serious alternative to flying, and the horrors of flying on cattle services such as Ryanair.

[glucas]

I have probably done Harwich Hook of Holland some two hundred times (almost always on the night boat) and it is still my favourite way to travel to the UK, and certainly with a bike. I prefer to arrive a bit early, and then have a good dinner on board plus a cooked breakfast the next morning.
As for sleeper services in Europe, I have similarly liked them. In the seventies I would take the sleeper from Amsterdam to Rome and it gave you that real sense of travel. More recently we have taken the Intercity Night Line from Holland to Switzerland a few times on family cycling holidays and it worked a treat. So I cannot wait for these to return in a big way.
And all of this will be much more attractive with faster and more comfortable rolling stock such as is being planned. Plus, for internediate distances, the better international connectivity between high speed train services will also be a serious alternative to flying, and the horrors of flying on cattle services such as Ryanair.

I have only done the Harwich - Hook of Holland once, about 4 years ago, when I opted to drive to Jena in Thüringen, for a yearly course that I do at the University there. It was a fabulous experience, compared to the normal trek down to Heathrow Airport and flying to Berlin - taking a train. It reminded me of ferry trips in the 1980s from dover to calais. As you say, dinner on board, and a cooked breakfast in the morning. Driving through Holland for the first time was fascinating and then Germany, which on the first day of the summer holidays, had what seemed like a million cars on the Autobahn, some of them driving like Formula 1 cars. A digression I know, but I could not believe the speed of some of these German cars on the Autobahn.

Anyway, back to bikes and Harwich - Hook of Holland. This makes absolute sense as a gateway, especially if you live within a reasonable distance to Harwich, like I do, in Cambridgeshire. In terms of bikes, where is the main connecting hub usually to central Europe and beyond, is it Rotterdam? So - one would just cycle to Rotterdam from the Hook of Holland, or get the Metro - is it from Schiedam? Is Rotterdam a major connecting hub - like Lille? Or is there another station?

[Jdsk]

After cycling the EV15 S to N we cycled to the ferry from the centre of Rotterdam. There's a bit on city streets and then most of it on a traffic free path. Nice way to end the trip.

The problem was that we needed to get back to Oxford and you aren't allowed bikes on the mainline train to London until something like 1100. I've written up our attempted solution somewhere in the archives.

As above: this would make a good connection to the new sleepers, but would be even better if returning in that direction was easier.

Jonathan

[willem jongman]

I have not yet used the new connection from the Hook to I think Schiedam, but cycling is also doable though not very attractive. Rotterdam is a major railway station for connections to the South. Most connections to the East would be through Utrecht, which is easily reached from Rotterdam. On the UK side, my journeys were always between Harwich PQ and Cambridge, either by train or by bike, depending on the situation.