What is CUK doing for us?

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robgul
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by robgul »

Psamathe wrote: 31 May 2021, 8:14pm
gaz wrote: 31 May 2021, 8:08pm
drossall wrote: 31 May 2021, 7:48pmWasn't that tried off an earlier version of this thread?
The Touring Cyclist Club Ltd was dissolved 16 Oct 2018.
It was a shame as the organisers came up with a good plan, tried hard, did a good job, etc. but I guess not enough people responded?

Ian
That's pretty much what happened - lots of interest from loads of people but when it came to actually contributing effort etc they shied away.

The word "club" was more to focus the concept of shared resource and contributions rather than "groups of people meeting"
E2E http://www.cycle-endtoend.org.uk
HoECC http://www.heartofenglandcyclingclub.org.uk
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slowster
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by slowster »

PH wrote: 31 May 2021, 10:14pmIt's a relatively small organisation, with limited funds
And its funding and resources are dwarfed by those of the bodies and interests which directly or indirectly oppose it or would simply prefer to ignore the needs of cyclists, e.g. the roads and automotive lobbies, train operators, ferry operators, national and local government, politicians and parts of the media.

If CUK is to be much more effective, it is going to need more funding and resources. I think one of the best ways of doing that nowadays is by exploiting the opportunity that social media and the internet offers for getting funding from the grassroots. In the USA Bernie Sanders and his supporters have shown how it is possible for someone who would never get the backing of the big money donors in US politics, to attract huge funding from small donations by ordinary people. In the UK the Labour Party dramatically increased its membership when it allowed new members to join for just £3 and vote in the leadership contest. Similarly in the commercial field crowdfunding websites like Kickstarter have made it possible for new products to be made which would never have seen the light of day if they had depended on investment from other sources.

There are millions of people who ride bikes in the UK, and the easiest way for CUK to increase its funding is to get small amounts from as many of them as possible (as opposed to getting large donations or increases in the number of members paying £48 per annum). To do that it needs to communicate propositions online which are much more concrete and specific than its 5 year strategy document.

A single issue specific campaign for which one-off donations are sought is probably easier to get funding for, and probably the best way to start. I said on the Bolton Abbey thread that I would contribute to a fighting/legal defence fund if CUK stood behind an organised campaign of local DAs and affiliated clubs organising club runs which went over the landrover tracks on the estate, in an attempt to provoke the Duke of Devonshire into taking CUK to court and establishing whether cyclists are legally entitled to ride such tracks. On that thread thirdcrank said that Bolton Abbey would make an ideal test case for cycling access, and an issue like that would also be ideal for a first effort at using social media to raise specific funding for the legal costs and associated media campaigning.

Campaigning for more and better capacity for bikes on trains would need a different approach. It would be a much longer term campaign needing regular continual funding, which would be better met by the sort of low cost membership fee I mentioned in a post above, with the member choosing to direct their fee towards a specific campaign. For that to work CUK would need to state in advance how it proposed to use the money. For example it would probably need at least one person working full time on the issue, and it would need to decide whether joining ECF would be the best use of funds. It might even be suitable for a crowdfunding type model, where CUK would indicate what it would do with different levels of funding, giving more people an incentive to contribute in order to hit the next funding target.
Last edited by slowster on 1 Jun 2021, 11:33am, edited 1 time in total.
thirdcrank
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by thirdcrank »

I think it's correct to say that people do dig deep in response to crowd funding appeals. A couple that spring to mind are the Close Pass mats and the Michael Mason case.

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PH
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by PH »

slowster wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 10:56am
PH wrote: 31 May 2021, 10:14pmIt's a relatively small organisation, with limited funds
If CUK is to be much more effective,
I'm not sure you have a full understanding of the implications of being a charity. I'm not an expert, but the ideas you put forward are exactly what those opposing the conversion were saying wouldn't be possible, in short, that the membership would not be able to direct the trustees.
They can (As thirdcrank demonstrates above) ask for donations for a specific purpose, but that isn't the same as the membership subscription.
Plus - I can't find a source, but I'm sure I've read that in countries where cycling is more popular, a smaller percentage of those cycling are members of any cycling organisation. Most people simply don't see a need for them to be a member, not for £50, not for £10. Just look at all the threads on here, people tend to view their membership in terms of what they get, not what it might do for the good of cycling generally. I do sympathise with those who really can't afford a quid a week, but I don't know any.
Barred1
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by Barred1 »

PH wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 11:33am
slowster wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 10:56am
PH wrote: 31 May 2021, 10:14pmIt's a relatively small organisation, with limited funds
If CUK is to be much more effective,
I'm not sure you have a full understanding of the implications of being a charity. I'm not an expert, but the ideas you put forward are exactly what those opposing the conversion were saying wouldn't be possible, in short, that the membership would not be able to direct the trustees.
They can (As thirdcrank demonstrates above) ask for donations for a specific purpose, but that isn't the same as the membership subscription.
Plus - I can't find a source, but I'm sure I've read that in countries where cycling is more popular, a smaller percentage of those cycling are members of any cycling organisation. Most people simply don't see a need for them to be a member, not for £50, not for £10. Just look at all the threads on here, people tend to view their membership in terms of what they get, not what it might do for the good of cycling generally. I do sympathise with those who really can't afford a quid a week, but I don't know any.
Charities absolutely hate "restricted funds" - i.e. funds raised for a specific purpose . . arguing that it is potentially inefficient (for examples at either end of the spectrum : they don't raise enough and can't finish the target task OR they raise too much and can't reallocate the surplus cash)
I've had some involvement with national cancer related charities and they get "local committees" (volunteer branches) demanding that the funds they raise are spent in their area . . . clearly unrealistic.
For a small outfit like CTC to have restricted funding would be unproductive.
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CJ
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by CJ »

PH wrote: 31 May 2021, 10:14pmIt's a relatively small organisation, with limited funds, and a large proportion of the membership subscription is spent directly on member benefits.
That used to be the case, but not now. The tax relief available with charity status is contingent upon minimal direct benefits for members/subscribers and CTC has radically cut those benefits in an attempt to maximise the tax advantages.
PH wrote: 31 May 2021, 10:14pmI'm not even sure there was a question here rather than just a gripe.
You're right, the question was largely rhetorical. But I think it's important to ask it, for the long-term good of CTC/CUK.

I observe that successful cycling campaigns the world over, harness the natural synergy between travel and transport use of the bicycle. Both activities use a bike because it's a most convenient, expedient and satisfying way of transporting oneself and one's stuff from place to place, about four times quicker and easier than walking. So by and large, we want the same things. So yes, I do have a gripe, that CUK has divorced travel from transport and marginalised the former.

It's nice that cycling tends to keep us healthy, that it's good for the environment and that some people also use bikes for sport. But to my mind those are incidental benefits and side-issues. If one of those aspects is your primary motivation for using a bike, but such special interests should not be allowed to conflict with CTC's central mission: to promote and protect cycling as a means of travel and transport.

I put it to you that those special interests have been allowed to conflict with CTC's central mission.
  • In shaming those who fly with their bikes in order to use their limited holiday to explore foreign contries by cycle, rather than lobby the train and ferry companies to provide an adequate alternative, CUK has not even done anything useful for the environment, but indulged in a bit of eco-virtue-signalling.
  • Meanwhile, in fighting for the right to ride on the A63, rather than improvement of the alternative route, CUK has pandered to the sporting fringe instead of negotiating a good-enough facility for everyone else.
For another example of an apparent two-speed policy by CTC/CUK I give you the Bedford Turbo Roundabout. In this dreadful compromise some very inconvenient and unsafe cyclepaths were 'approved' since, after all, faster riders could still use the road!

IMHO the unwillingness of CTC/CUK to trade our 'right to ride' on the road for decent alternative facilities (such as we find when we tour not only the Netherlands but anywhere speaking German or a Scandinavian language) not only fails the cycle-tourist but also the everyday transport cyclist. They stick to this failed policy of the 30s in order not to upset a hard core of road warriors (who unfortunately, become over-represented in the shrinking cycling population of an anti-cycling country such as UK, USA... almost anywhere English-speaking). Meanwhile the eco-cyclists are satisfied by low-grade so-called facilities. Some will even campaign against the smooth, durable, all-weather surfacing needed to make cycling as easy, clean and comfortable as it can be, on the grounds of 'urbanising the countryside'.

To be a campaigner for cycling you need a strong passion for it. But for most people who use bikes, it's just a way of getting somewhere. So long as it's the best or good-enough compromise of time, convenience, comfort, economy and safety, they cycle. When it isn't, they don't. As a touring cyclist one's passion is for the journey rather than the bike as such. We choose to travel by bike because it's the best compromise between a very similar set of factors as affect the choice of mode for the journey to work. Herein lies the synergy between touring and commuting. Cycle-touring fuels a passion that wants very much the same things as facilitate cycling as everday transport. That is what we do after all: transport ourselves by cycle, every day.

Sport, whether road-racing or mountain-biking, does not have the same synergy. A passion for speed at any cost and overcoming obstacles - be they high road passes or challenging surfaces and gradients, does not mesh so readily with most people's idea of how they'd like to get to work! Sure, some racers commute by bike, but at speeds and over distances no normal person would contemplate. Mountain-bikers too: by routes too rough and filthy for any normal person. A passion for nature, the environment etc., goes better with travel and transport cycling, but also leads to the acceptance of compromises that fail to make cycling a sufficiently convenient alternative to other means of transport. That's how we've ended up with so much crap infrastructure in UK: rubbish paths that we use only under the duress of drivers, who see the blue signs as permission to bully any cyclist with the ungrateful temerity still to use the adjacent road.
Chris Juden
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thirdcrank
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by thirdcrank »

... ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.
I had to look this up and I see it's attributed to JFK some sixty years ago.

Substitute "charity" for "country" and things may be a bit clearer, especially if you accept that charity is about giving, rather than a tax wheeze.

This thread seems to give some pointers.

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PH
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by PH »

CJ wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 12:32pm
PH wrote: 31 May 2021, 10:14pmIt's a relatively small organisation, with limited funds, and a large proportion of the membership subscription is spent directly on member benefits.
That used to be the case, but not now. The tax relief available with charity status is contingent upon minimal direct benefits for members/subscribers and CTC has radically cut those benefits in an attempt to maximise the tax advantages.
You do know they're no longer claiming Gift Aid? There may be other tax advantages I'm not aware of, but that was the big one that formed a large part of the conversion debate. I looked at the accounts when the end of GA was announced, there wasn't a huge gap between the percentage of income from membership subscriptions and the percentage of expenditure on member benefits. Whether they're the right membership benefits....
As for the rest. I largely agree. I am against flying, with or without a bike, it's so damaging it isn't sustainable, I'll usually choose not to go than fly. But I find the idea that CUK not promoting it would make any difference absurd. I'm sure that better train provision would encourage some cyclists to use them, that isn't going to make any difference to the number of flights - even without the hassle to taking a bike, I know more people who've chosen to fly to Paris than take the Eurostar. There is a serious mismatch between the way flying short haul has become a common, cheap option and the damage it does. Virtue signalling? I'll wear the badge, it doesn't change the evidence.
I'd have no issue swapping some road rights for cycling provision, but I expect that's not a majority opinion among the membership.

I'm not optimistic about the future of cycling for transport, the popularity of scooters seems a clear indication that any transport revolution isn't going to be pedal powered. I predict that within a decade those cycling will be doing so either for leisure or because it's the only option they can afford. I have no idea where that will leave CUK.
domnortheast
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by domnortheast »

PH wrote: 31 May 2021, 10:14pm I'm not optimistic about the future of cycling for transport, the popularity of scooters seems a clear indication that any transport revolution isn't going to be pedal powered. I predict that within a decade those cycling will be doing so either for leisure or because it's the only option they can afford. I have no idea where that will leave CUK.
I'm not sure I agree with that myself. I don't have any stats to hand but I would be interested to know statistically speaking how the proportion of the population using bicycles has changed over the decades from the start of the 20th c. to the present day. Surely if you were a cyclist in the late 1950s/60s you would have predicted the demise of the bicycle entirely in favour of the car and yet here we are 3/4 of a century later and cycling is booming. Sure, there will be a large number of people who opt for scooters or ebikes but I think there will also still be a significant proportion of us who cycle for the pleasure of turning a pedal under our own steam.
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by mattheus »

Re; the CUK anti-flying thing.
2 points:
- I have found myself largley agreeing with CJ.s points about this. Whilst;
- I'm pretty sure this was a member-led thing. So blame them!
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by iandusud »

CJ wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 12:32pmBut for most people who use bikes, it's just a way of getting somewhere. So long as it's the best or good-enough compromise of time, convenience, comfort, economy and safety, they cycle.
Do you have data to support that Chris? I suspect that these days most people who cycle do so for leisure. And I think this is all the more so with the Bradley Wiggins?Chris Froome Tour de France success effect. Certainly most of the cyclists I know do so at the weekend or in the evening as a sport/leisure activity. For myself cycling is my daily transport to and from work and my a leisure activity at weekends and holidays. However I do believe that so much more needs to be done to make cycling an obvious and logical choice as a way of getting somewhere.

Ian
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by mattheus »

I see plenty of short-journey utility cyclists ....

... if I'm riding in a town/city. Very few if I'm 10 miles from nearest town!

Do you have any data to support *your* view?

(I've seen data - try google. I suspect Chris is right on this. He would be a lot more right if we were in Holland! But we're not ... )
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by iandusud »

mattheus wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 4:22pm I see plenty of short-journey utility cyclists ....

... if I'm riding in a town/city. Very few if I'm 10 miles from nearest town!

Do you have any data to support *your* view?

(I've seen data - try google. I suspect Chris is right on this. He would be a lot more right if we were in Holland! But we're not ... )
No I don't have any data to support any *view*. I wasn't trying to express a particular point of view I was only expressing what I observe where I cycle. My question was a genuine one and I would hope CJ is right, and I'm sure if we had good cycle provision on trains and better cycling infrastructure more and more leisure cyclists would choose to cycle for transport.
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by PH »

iandusud wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 4:53pm No I don't have any data to support any *view*.
Plenty of statistics here
https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics

I've heard people argue the accuracy, sadly they're such small numbers that it would take serious miscounting before it painted a different picture. Page 16 has a breakdown of trips per type, though I don't think it includes distance.
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Re: What is CUK doing for us?

Post by slowster »

PH wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 11:33am I'm not sure you have a full understanding of the implications of being a charity. I'm not an expert, but the ideas you put forward are exactly what those opposing the conversion were saying wouldn't be possible, in short, that the membership would not be able to direct the trustees.
They can (As thirdcrank demonstrates above) ask for donations for a specific purpose, but that isn't the same as the membership subscription.
You are absolutely right that I don't have a full understanding of the implications of being a charity. I appreciate that as a charity the trustees have ultimate responsibility which they are not legally allowed to effectively abdicate by simply doing what the membership tells them. Nevethless is it (or need it be) quite so binary? Firstly membership input regarding which of CUK's activities should be prioritised would probably be based on choices presented by the trustees to the membership, i.e. they should all be in accordance with the charitable status and aims. Effectively it would be the trustees presenting a number of options which they themselves had identified, and which they were asking members to choose between (or to provide increased funding for one or more of the options). Secondly, even if it would not be permissible for members to dictate how their subscriptions were used, I presume that there is nothing to stop members being asked that question at each renewal, and for the results to be published. So if 50% of the membership say their biggest wish is for CUK to focus more on bikes on trains, and at the end of a year very little of the campaigning has been for that, the trustees would need to explain why.

What I am suggesting is in some respects 'just' a more direct membership feedback/input system than asking members to complete a survey and asking for money separately. And I think it would be a two way process: Duncan Dollimore and others in the CUK could probably draw up a shortlist of things they would like to do, but for which currently there is not the funding, and what I am suggesting would give them the opportunity to make the case for extra funding from members and non-members to do things which otherwise might never happen.
PH wrote: 1 Jun 2021, 11:33am Plus - I can't find a source, but I'm sure I've read that in countries where cycling is more popular, a smaller percentage of those cycling are members of any cycling organisation. Most people simply don't see a need for them to be a member, not for £50, not for £10. Just look at all the threads on here, people tend to view their membership in terms of what they get, not what it might do for the good of cycling generally. I do sympathise with those who really can't afford a quid a week, but I don't know any.
I suspect that the more favourable conditions are for cycling in a country, the more it is the case that the battles have already been won and consequently there is less need for cycling membership organisations to advocate for and protect cyclists' interests. Good cycling facilities are, I presume, written into the design standards used by their governments and developers, and are expected by everyone as a matter of course. Once a country has reached that stage, the cycling bodies probably have a relatively easy task to make sure that cyclists do not lose what they now have.

In contrast in the UK a lot of cycling facilities have worsened, and recovering that lost ground will cost more money than it would have done to fight to prevent the deterioration happening. CJ's example of the reduction in cycling provision on Eurostar being a case in point.
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