Europe 2021

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PaulaT
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by PaulaT »

mjr wrote: 14 Jun 2021, 7:30pm
PaulaT wrote: 14 Jun 2021, 6:45pm The EMA didn't do you any favours either. They had the same phase three data at the same time as the UK,USA and did yet did nothing with it for weeks which put you about 4 weeks behind us in starting your vaccinations.
In reality, AZ requested UK approval in November 2020, which was granted on 30 December, but only requested the EMA approval in January 2021, which started its review on 12 Jan and approved the vaccine on 29 Jan. So the EMA acted more quickly than the UK's MHRA and it looks like most of the delay was AZ not asking for approval (conspiracy theorists apply here), but the EMA may have been able to learn from the MHRA's work.
i was thinking of the Pfizer vaccine rather than the AZ. Perhaps I should have made that clearer.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by willem jongman »

In the meantime, you can organize a big wedding party since we now know that those are immune to the delta variant.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by willem jongman »

In the Netherlands it is now birth year 1996.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by willem jongman »

And combined vaccination and willingness to be vaccinated has now gone up to 87% for all age groups combined. The increase is largely due to the high actual vaccination rates among the 40-54 year olds who were recently vaccinated (now up to 90%), and to a greater willingness among the 16-24 year olds who are about to be vaccinated. My 25 year old daughter managed to schedule an appointment today, but said she will have to go to one of the villages because there were just no slots in the two mega vaccination centres here in our university town where the young are very keen to get a shot. From next week all people over 18 will also be offered a Janssen shot instead of the default Biontech/Pfizer or Moderna, to speed up the process even more. This will also be the moment that second dose vaccination will be speeded up significantly (about 30% now).
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mjr
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by mjr »

PaulaT wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 10:09am
mjr wrote: 14 Jun 2021, 7:30pm
PaulaT wrote: 14 Jun 2021, 6:45pm The EMA didn't do you any favours either. They had the same phase three data at the same time as the UK,USA and did yet did nothing with it for weeks which put you about 4 weeks behind us in starting your vaccinations.
In reality, AZ requested UK approval in November 2020, which was granted on 30 December, but only requested the EMA approval in January 2021, which started its review on 12 Jan and approved the vaccine on 29 Jan. So the EMA acted more quickly than the UK's MHRA and it looks like most of the delay was AZ not asking for approval (conspiracy theorists apply here), but the EMA may have been able to learn from the MHRA's work.
i was thinking of the Pfizer vaccine rather than the AZ. Perhaps I should have made that clearer.
What you wrote still wouldn't be accurate for the Pfizer vaccine, which was approved in the EU+UK (as it was still during the Brexit transition period) by the EMA on 21 December, just under 3 weeks after the UK's MHRA issued "rapid temporary regulatory approval to address significant public health issues such as a pandemic".

And can you imagine how low take-up would have been in more sceptical countries if they had used the same type of rapid temporary approval as the UK?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by willem jongman »

Indeed. Boris Johnson needed a break after his disastrous earlier handling of the epidemic (which in fact he seems quite happy to repeat to save his wedding party). The plan was to syphon off all early production and then claim that this callous behaviour was a benefit of Brexit. In one sense it was, because the UK no longer felt bound by rules of common decency, but in another sense it was not, because it did not add manufacturing capacity. The UK was and remains a net importer of EU made vaccines.
And yes, vaccine hesitancy demanded that no risk was taken of the kind that the UK was willing to take. We now know that there was a risk indeed in the case of the AZ vaccine. It was one that I was willing to take but I am glad my children no longer have to.
Anyway, the infection rate in the EU is plummeting while sadly the UK is suffering another wave because once again its prime minister delayed decisive action for too long. My beloved Britain really does deserve better.
ossie
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by ossie »

willem jongman wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 6:50pm Indeed. Boris Johnson needed a break after his disastrous earlier handling of the epidemic (which in fact he seems quite happy to repeat to save his wedding party). The plan was to syphon off all early production and then claim that this callous behaviour was a benefit of Brexit. In one sense it was, because the UK no longer felt bound by rules of common decency, but in another sense it was not, because it did not add manufacturing capacity. The UK was and remains a net importer of EU made vaccines.
And yes, vaccine hesitancy demanded that no risk was taken of the kind that the UK was willing to take. We now know that there was a risk indeed in the case of the AZ vaccine. It was one that I was willing to take but I am glad my children no longer have to.
Anyway, the infection rate in the EU is plummeting while sadly the UK is suffering another wave because once again its prime minister delayed decisive action for too long. My beloved Britain really does deserve better.
Give over Willem. When the EU were pontificating we moved quickly. As for common decency and callous behaviour there was nothing like threatening exports of the vaccine to the UK...now that was callous. The EU got themselves in a right muddle, many in that moment found complete justification for moving out of the EU.

The risk with AZ is also not worth arguing about. We're still happy to administer it to our children, all three of mine have been vaccinated with AZ and had no quibbles about it.
Last edited by ossie on 15 Jun 2021, 9:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
Psamathe
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by Psamathe »

willem jongman wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 6:50pm .. The plan was to syphon off all early production and then claim that this callous behaviour was a benefit of Brexit. In one sense it was, because the UK no longer felt bound by rules of common decency, but in another sense it was not, because it did not add manufacturing capacity. The UK was and remains a net importer of EU made vaccines.....
Much as I hate to defend Johnson, the UK provided £21m funding for the AZ production plant whilst the Dutch PM declined to provide £8.5m when asked to help by Oxford University.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/british-taxpayers-funded-eu-factory-at-heart-of-vaccine-row/ar-BB1fdzpE wrote:... to invest in the Halix factory alongside the UK last April, but the deal was never signed.

The European Union would have been likely to have secured millions of AstraZeneca doses had the Dutch government acted more decisively, sources suggested. An EU official admitted the bloc had yet to contribute a single euro towards the Halix plant.
...
I've no idea about the nature of this NL source but similar story
https://nltimes.nl/2021/03/30/netherlands-blew-chance-invest-astrazeneca-vaccine-report wrote:Netherlands blew a chance to invest in AstraZeneca vaccine: Report
When the University of Oxford asked the Netherlands for a ten-million euro investment at the Halix vaccine plant in Leiden, it opened the door for the country, and likely the entire European Union, to gain access to millions more Covid-19 vaccine doses compared to what AstraZeneca delivered to the EU in the first quarter of 2021.
...
By that point, the British government had already committed to a 25-million euro investment at the Halix plant in Leiden, making it possible to produce 200-liter barrels of a vaccine.

The Dutch investment would have allowed the facility to scale up so it could deliver thousand-liter drums.
...
Though a potential Dutch investment in the Oxford vaccine would have been more complicated because of the Anglo-Swedish pharmaceutical firm's involvement, it would have potentially paid off significantly with wider access to Covid-19 vaccine doses so desperately needed one year later. ...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1418283/EU-vaccine-news-export-ban-AstraZeneca-Halix-Netherlands-funding-latest-uk-vaccines wrote: Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte snubbed a plea from Oxford University for £8.5million in funding to boost production of the AstraZeneca jab on the Continent. When the request was made, at the start of the pandemic in April last year, British taxpayers had already invested more than £21million into the Halix plant in the Netherlands ...
All very well shouting about "UK no longer felt bound by rules of common decency" but UK taxpayer did invest to help when asked and the Dutch didn't.

Ian
willem jongman
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by willem jongman »

The EU were not pontificating but carefully planning how to organize solidarity within the EU. Admittedly, that takes time. And yes, there was a good argument for banning exports since the UK had syphoned off the early EU production volume. Because that was the only reason the UK had a headstart. People in the EU were dying when UK politicians were boosting that they had grabbed EU production. Admittedly, the UK needed it, given the Johnson goverment's incompetence in the earlier phases of the pandemic (just look at the mortality figures). And in fact, the UK still needs EU vaccine manufacturing to finish its vaccination campaign. And it may well need that badly, given the rise of the delta variant, once again the product of the UK government's slowness and incompetence. I love the UK, and I would really like it to have a more civilized and more competent government than this bunch. If you want to understand my anger, just realize that it is because I have so many very good friends there, and loved living and working there. And realize that all my UK friends are equally dismayed. In fact, a number of them are looking for jobs in the EU because they believe there is no future for the UK as it is now.
In the meantime, you are back in splendid isolation, with little foreign travel, and obstacles on foreign trade that hinder your imports and make your exports uncompetitive. And no political credit left - just observe the recent G7.
thirdcrank
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by thirdcrank »

IMO the UK was caught hopping by the pandemic as was most of the Western World. I'd have to say that if common decency imposes obligations on this country now, then those obligations are to the poorer countries without the resources ever to get it right unaided.

WJ I fear your G7 comment indicates you have begun to clutch at straws.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by willem jongman »

The request was too late and the nltimes is neither a serious source nor accurate in this story. But anyway, the real investment was by Germany that invested many times more than the UK in vaccine manufacturing, and fortunately of a better vaccine (which no one could admittedly know at the time). And that paid off.
And I agree with thirdcrank. Current obligation is to help the third world. The EU is trying, and has continued to export, but it is a tall order. The Netherlands have just sent a first shipment to Surinam and have already vaccinated the Carribian territories.
Psamathe
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by Psamathe »

willem jongman wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 9:14pm ... And in fact, the UK still needs EU vaccine manufacturing to finish its vaccination campaign. And it may well need that badly, given the rise of the delta variant, once again the product of the UK government's slowness and incompetence. ....
So how come the UK invested £21m in the Halix plant and the Dutch Gov. contributed nothing (even though they were asked for less than that). When the UK invests infinately more than the Dutch how come it is so unreasonable to expect some of that production (the production their investment enabled given how the
https://nltimes.nl/2021/03/30/netherlands-blew-chance-invest-astrazeneca-vaccine-report wrote: ....
The Dutch investment would have allowed the facility to scale up so it could deliver thousand-liter drums. ...
And lets face it, when a product is being sold at cost, investing is NOT to get a good return! The Dutch were asked and had the opportunity but decided not to provide help yet they expect to reap the benefits of the efforts of others (whilst shouting about "UK no longer felt bound by rules of common decency" whilst receiving the benefits of the UK's foresight?

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by Psamathe »

willem jongman wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 9:28pm The request was too late and the nltimes is neither a serious source nor accurate in this story. But anyway, the real investment was by Germany that invested many times more than the UK in vaccine manufacturing, and fortunately of a better vaccine (which no one could admittedly know at the time). And that paid off....
The dispute over vaccine shipments was in relation to the Dutch AZ plant and the story about the investment was widely reported (I didn't quote the Telegraph because it's behind a paywall and I can't be bothered to search out loads of different sources
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/british-taxpayers-funded-eu-factory-at-heart-of-vaccine-row/ar-BB1fdzpE wrote:But the Dutch failed to sign the deal despite entering initial talks with Halix. The failure to invest meant the EU missed the chance to secure millions of doses for itself, sources suggested.
Everything about the vaccine development was done fast and with risk (e.g. the vaccine production facilities were built before the vaccine has even been demonstrated to work). Dutch Gov. had the opportunity to help in the Dutch AZ plant and didn't (either from being too slow or whatever reason). Either way, UK did invest significant amounts, a risk so your "UK no longer felt bound by rules of common decency" is just daft.

Te same arguments did not happen about the Pfizer as it was a facility setup for far wider distribution and they did not experience the same challenges with early production reliability.

Ian
ossie
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by ossie »

willem jongman wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 9:14pm If you want to understand my anger, just realize that it is because I have so many very good friends there, and loved living and working there. And realize that all my UK friends are equally dismayed. In fact, a number of them are looking for jobs in the EU because they believe there is no future for the UK as it is now.
In the meantime, you are back in splendid isolation, with little foreign travel, and obstacles on foreign trade that hinder your imports and make your exports uncompetitive. And no political credit left - just observe the recent G7.
Your anger is misplaced. You may think we're in splendid isolation but we have a splendid country to enjoy it in for starters. Mountains, lakes and world beating beaches. We're also enjoying some splendid weather and our local economies are enjoying the boost. Additionally quite a few countries are actually accepting UK tourists. I won't comment on trade and exports as this is a bloody cycling forum.

Nothing in the UK is really that much out of the ordinary. I can have a night in a hotel, have a meal in a restaurant or a pub, stay in a campsite etc. Are you not getting slightly blindsided by the press?
Psamathe
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Re: Europe July.????

Post by Psamathe »

willem jongman wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 9:14pm The EU were not pontificating but carefully planning how to organize solidarity within the EU. Admittedly, that takes time.....
They were also arguing about liability
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission–AstraZeneca_COVID-19_vaccine_dispute wrote:The European Union was generally slow in signing their vaccine contracts because they were demanding producer liability if something goes wrong and wanted to conduct a rolling-review process (leading to ordinary regulatory approval) rather than an emergency authorisation.
(There are issues with "Emergency Approval" under EMA ...)

Ian
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