Europe 2021

[willem jongman]

Indeed and pretty clear. I fear at times our conservative Dutch government is inspired a bit too much by the UK. Infection rates are beginning to rise quite rapidly now that we too have abandoned nearly all restrictions.

[simonhill]

Is it such a bad things that more has opened up, even if rates are rising. How long can we be under heavy lockdown?

There has to be a point where we accept that Covid is here. We (the UK) have been heavily vaccinated and it is mainly people who don't want the jab, who haven't had it and also get the sickest or even die. Hospitalisation is down, deaths are down - and life has to go on.

Amongst the people I know there is a whole range of how they see the threat. Some (like me) are double jabbed and happy to resume a nearly normal life. Some are more restrained and a few others have become 'Covid hermits' hiding themselves away in fear.

Maybe my view is slightly skewed as I spend a lot of my time in places that have endemic diseases, malaria, dengue, etc. I take a risk when I go there, but for me the rewards far outweigh the risks.

I'm off to Europe next week and am glad I can travel again. I will be cautious to and from my contacts, but am pretty much like that whenever I travel.

I still reckon my morning bike ride on a busy road to get to the seafront cycle path is the biggest ongoing threat to my life, but I ain't giving up cycling.

[mjr]

Is it such a bad things that more has opened up, even if rates are rising. How long can we be under heavy lockdown?

The UK has never been under heavy lockdown. All of the lockdowns here have been light and late.

There has to be a point where we accept that Covid is here. We (the UK) have been heavily vaccinated and it is mainly people who don't want the jab, who haven't had it and also get the sickest or even die. Hospitalisation is down, deaths are down - and life has to go on.

You mean life has to go on except for the vulnerable and those who cannot take the jab or do not react to it?

The "accept" crowd do not seem to face up to the fact that this high level of cases will kill a load of people with mild chronic illnesses unnecessarily and it risks incubating yet more mutations. The UK has not learned from the recent past.

Amongst the people I know there is a whole range of how they see the threat. Some (like me) are double jabbed and happy to resume a nearly normal life. Some are more restrained and a few others have become 'Covid hermits' hiding themselves away in fear.

There are almost no "Covid hermits" except for a few clinically extremely vulnerable who, frankly, are probably correct not to trust the idiots around them. This is a spectre imagined up by idiots who want to discourage use of rational moderate precautions like ventilation, monitoring, face coverings in underventilated public spaces and so on. I don't understand what can be in it for those idiots. They can't all be paid by Russian interests to damage our economy, can they?

I still reckon my morning bike ride on a busy road to get to the seafront cycle path is the biggest ongoing threat to my life, but I ain't giving up cycling.

Unless you're riding alley-cat-style, you're probably wrong about that, as the activity will be extending your life in some ways. Humans tend to be rubbish at risk perception.

[willem jongman]

Visiting Europe should be pretty safe unless you will be going to some Eastern European countries with low vaccination rates. Everywhere else the vaccination rate is broadly similar to the UK. However, the infection rate but also hospitalisation and mortality in most European countries are very much lower than in the UK, even though it remains hard to understand why that is. So in any case, Europe should mostly be safer than the UK. I agree that we cannot remain in severely restricted conditions forever, but equally it is clear that some measures such as face masks in specified conditions or mandatory Digital Covid Certificate use make a great deal of sense without imposing too much of a burden. From what I understand the EU Digital Covid Certificate is now also mandatory in German bars and restaurants, and soon in Berlin but valid only if based on full vaccination or recovery, and no longer on just a test.

[Psamathe]

Amongst the people I know there is a whole range of how they see the threat. Some (like me) are double jabbed and happy to resume a nearly normal life. Some are more restrained and a few others have become 'Covid hermits' hiding themselves away in fear.

There are almost no "Covid hermits" except for a few clinically extremely vulnerable who, frankly, are probably correct not to trust the idiots around them. This is a spectre imagined up by idiots who want to discourage use of rational moderate precautions like ventilation, monitoring, face coverings in underventilated public spaces and so on. I don't understand what can be in it for those idiots. They can't all be paid by Russian interests to damage our economy, can they?....

I don't like wearing a face mask but it seems a minor inconvenience if it avoids somebody else catching/spreading Covid with risks of death/long-Covid (and vice versa).

High levels of new infections may no longer be headlines but even at current levels we are at 40,000+ deaths per year plus horrendous impacts of long-Covid plus an NHS that rally isn't there any more (I was an urgent referral to hospital consultant 20 months ago and don't yet have a diagnosis nor treatment and am being passed on to another consultant and am told waiting list for appointment is 12+ months!). The NHS might be able to "handle" the current Covid caseload (excl. long-Covid where you are on-your-own) but that current Covid caseload is costing and impacting non-Covid patients.

Ian

[willem jongman]

Dutch data suggest that schools have become a major source of infections. Hence vaccinating the young is important. In the Netherlands 58% of the 12-17 year olds have now had a first dose, and 53% of them are now fully vaccinated (in my - university - town it is 64% and 60%). Therefore, there is still plenty of scope for more vaccinations, but equally, the situation is a lot better than only recently. The vaccination rate among older age cohorts also continues to creep upwards, slowly but steadily.

[mjr]

Visiting Europe should be pretty safe unless you will be going to some Eastern European countries with low vaccination rates. Everywhere else the vaccination rate is broadly similar to the UK. However, the infection rate but also hospitalisation and mortality in most European countries are very much lower than in the UK, even though it remains hard to understand why that is.

I am pretty sure it will be some combination of:
· the UK not continuing reasonable precautions such as face coverings, ventilation, distancing/capacity limits and working without commuting. Reportedly, Germany was allowing schools to spend up to €100,000 (if they needed it) on decent ventilation and air monitoring measures last autumn. The 24,000ish schools in England have been allocated £25m in total only this summer https://schoolsweek.co.uk/long-read-sch ... ntilation/ ;
· not requiring covid certificates to enter risky public spaces;
· not vaccinating teenagers: the UK rejected it initially based on a harm-v-benefit calculation apparently ignoring the mental health harm done to children who feel responsible for introducing covid to multigenerational households where it kills older family members;
· completely failing to support the gov.uk's own advice to encourage active travel and reduce air pollution in towns/cities, with fears over maskless public transport encouraging a lot of filthy "old banger" cars back onto the roads.

Really, we are spoilt for choice for contributing factors to the lethal UK covid disaster.

[Jdsk]

https://twitter.com/NHSDigital/status/1 ... 6298744832

Jonathan

[willem jongman]

Covid infections in the Netherlands are rapidly increasing, unlike in Germany or Belgium. Therefore I think the most likely cause is the relaxations that were introduced a few weeks ago, rather than the Autumn weather.

[mjr]

Covid infections in the Netherlands are rapidly increasing, unlike in Germany or Belgium. Therefore I think the most likely cause is the relaxations that were introduced a few weeks ago, rather than the Autumn weather.

I know I've only visited, but doesn't the Netherlands have a more indoorsy drinking culture than Germany (home of the beer garden) and Belgium (undersized bars with outdoor seating thanks to how business tax rates work)?

[willem jongman]

With Covid, bars were encouraged to increase their outside drinking and they have been allowed to use public spaces for that. Many bars now have outdoor heating. Indoor drinking is only allowed if you can show your digital covid certificate and the same applies to toilet visits.

[willem jongman]

This weekend a second office will open (in Groningen) to get non EU vaccinations recognized. Other towns will follow once their ict infrastucture is ready.
Yesterday we had a friend from the USA for dinner and he told us that his paper CDC vaccination record was accepted everywhere. It raised a few eyebrows but that was all.

[mjr]

With Covid, bars were encouraged to increase their outside drinking and they have been allowed to use public spaces for that. Many bars now have outdoor heating. Indoor drinking is only allowed if you can show your digital covid certificate and the same applies to toilet visits.

Outdoor space for bars and cafes was made easier in the UK too, but not for long and people are stubbornly packing into indoor spaces again now maybe due to some misguided idea that indoor drinking is some necessary part of the national culture which should be defended with our lives. It is now becoming rather difficult to find bars keeping their covered outdoor spaces open through the autumn

But what I asked was whether the Netherlands has a more indoorsy drinking culture than Belgium and Germany, not whether bars were encouraged to change. I guess that answers it in a way: if it was a change, then outdoor bars were not commonplace before.

How does the policy of no toilets for non-certificated people work? Isn't that encouraging a lot of micturating up walls? Do the streets of the Netherlands now run yellow?

This weekend a second office will open (in Groningen) to get non EU vaccinations recognized.
Yesterday we had a friend from the USA for dinner and he told us that his paper CDC vaccination record was accepted everywhere. It raised a few eyebrows but that was all.

I wonder if that is due to plausible deniability: if challenged, the venue manager will say that they didn't know the non EU vaccination needed to be converted and will probably be let off with a warning.

[willem jongman]

For years many Dutch pubs have had outdoor drinking (terrassen) until the weather became too cold. Heated outdoor facilities have stretched the period that this was possible but in the past such heating was criticized for environmental reasons. Until this week most people would opt to drink or eat outside. But on a day like today you really do not want to be outside anymore.
By and large I think most people do not mind having to show their Covid certificate and things seem to go pretty smoothly. There are almost no problems and many people are in fact strongly in favour. Do not forget that the vacination rate is high and still going up.
I think my friend's experience with his US paper certificate shows the common sense approach adopted by many and I am sure will not even incur a warning. The police have better things to do. A dodgy certificate from a corrupt country may be different.

[foxyrider]

A dodgy certificate from a corrupt country may be different.

That's us bgrd then