Europe 2021

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MrsHJ
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by MrsHJ »

willem jongman wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 5:49pm This weekend a second office will open (in Groningen) to get non EU vaccinations recognized. Other towns will follow once their ict infrastucture is ready.
Yesterday we had a friend from the USA for dinner and he told us that his paper CDC vaccination record was accepted everywhere. It raised a few eyebrows but that was all.
I met an American woman in France who was getting tested every 3 days until her vaccine certificate thingie was joined up onto the french app. It was in progress but taking too long and she was going to be in France for 3 months. America having no app at all isn’t great for them travelling.

For anyone here reading news reports about the NHS app failing I agree that it is erratic and sometimes 3/4G isn’t great in the bowels of airport terminals. Definitely worth printing your certificate from the app before travel. Also you can print it to Adobe or similar on your phone with any other travel evidence like locator forms before travel so it’s always accessible once opened even offline.

I’m now gearing up to get 7 family inc a boyfriend off to Norway for Xmas. It’s weird not having travelled for a couple of years and now going twice (that’s it though, no other plans). It’s like herding cats and rapidly getting very expensive.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by PDQ Mobile »

I am ever more puzzled by how much benefit this emphasis on certification is.
Given that the stated aim is to prevent/reduce transmission.

Wales has some of the highest vaccination rates in Western Europe and it now has the one of the highest levels of infection!
In that light, what good is actually being done by such constant scrutiny of the relatively few international travellers?

There are European countries with far lower vaccination rates with far lower case rates.
Testing, a massive effort, and expensive in it's various guises for both state and individual, is also shown to be unreliable, seemingly ever more so.
The cheaper, easier tests showing an accuracy often on a par with the expensive ones.
..............


I cannot for the life of me see why paper copy certificates aren't preferred over some very unreliable digital gadgetry.
Such a stress!!

Convince me the App thingy is better? More secure?
(A waste of your time, in my case, for I tire ever more of such devices, being old and a hater and sceptic of much that is over "techie")

A paper copy tucked in a passport overcomes all such problems?
The best form of ID surely?
The paper copy has a bar code which presumably the relevant authorities can use?

I suspect that little more than a cursory glance is often given.
And that given the earlier points here that seems to me pretty much all that is necessary!
willem jongman
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by willem jongman »

I am afraid there have been quite a few examples of counterfeit paper certificates, from the UK, Russia, but I am sure also other countries. Secondly, there was a desire to have a system that could incorporate tests results, and those have only a very limited validity.
Mind you, the EU system works pretty smoothly, as I could observe at the two theatre performances that I went to recently and where both mostly older visitors and old staff at the door coped easily as if they had never done anything else.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by PDQ Mobile »

willem jongman wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 11:08am I am afraid there have been quite a few examples of counterfeit paper certificates, from the UK, Russia, but I am sure also other countries. Secondly, there was a desire to have a system that could incorporate tests results, and those have only a very limited validity.
You cite the usual argument, Willem.
But I fail to see why at the doorway to a venue that the copying of a screen onto a digital device isn't-an equal problem? Screen shot sent to another device?
Much easier than paper forgery surely?

At full customs facilities it also seems to me paper proves more reliable and in conjunction with a Passport just as secure?

Note Mrs HJ's above comments about dodgy connectivity at airport desks.

Did you see the up to 4 hour waits at Heathrow recently?
Totally and utterly unacceptable! I will not be treated so.
The queueing there took twice as long as the travel!!
They talk about reducing Covid transmission risks by certification and subject travellers to THAT!

Start a crowd revolution -micturate on the floor :shock: , push down the desks!!!! :evil:
That might wake up ideas.

Ps.
Just to be clear, I personally did not travel through Heathrow- I fly but very rarely.
But I was outraged by the sight of those queues.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 14 Oct 2021, 12:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
bohrsatom
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by bohrsatom »

I was in France last week, taking the Eurostar then TGV down south. I imported my NHS vaccine QR code into the French "AntiCovid" app, which was scanned at the border.

Although it's mandatory to show the health pass on long-distance trains and when seated at a bar/restaurant, nobody asked for my pass on either of my two TGV journeys, and only about 3/4 of the cafes I stopped at checked my certificate. A few places just gave a cursory glance at the QR code rather than scan it into their phone/tablet.

Mask wearing is widespread, the rules are pretty much the same as the UK pre-"freedom day" - on trains, in shops and as you walk around common areas of restaurants. The majority of the French wear medical-grade (blue) disposable masks but I used the same washable fabric masks that I use at home and didn't get any strange looks.

On the return visit neither Eurostar nor the UK Border force were interested in my vaccination status, and my passenger locator form was checked by just one person who looked at the form on the screen of my iPhone from a distance of 2 metres.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by willem jongman »

The EU app has a moving window. You can copy the screen but it will not move and hence it will show itself as counterfeit. The EU app does not need an internet connection. Download your data once and then you are set. From what I understand only the checking device needs a connection. Anyway, I have not heard of any technical problems after the first day. Finally, you can take a printed copy as well.
Of course all of this is incovenient, and it is bad if things have not been organized properly. The other side of the coin is that Covid is also bad news, and if a country does not implement some restrictions it may find itself with UK style infection rates. At least, that is my hypothesis to explain UK infection rates. We are still in the middle of a pandemic.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by PDQ Mobile »

willem jongman wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:12pm The EU app has a moving window. You can copy the screen but it will not move and hence it will show itself as counterfeit. The EU app does not need an internet connection. Download your data once and then you are set. From what I understand only the checking device needs a connection. Anyway, I have not heard of any technical problems after the first day. Finally, you can take a printed copy as well.
Of course all of this is incovenient, and it is bad if things have not been organized properly. The other side of the coin is that Covid is also bad news, and if a country does not implement some restrictions it may find itself with UK style infection rates. At least, that is my hypothesis to explain UK infection rates. We are still in the middle of a pandemic.
Forgive me Willem but if I take two screen shots they will be in the photos "jobby" of my old phone and I can scoll happily though them.
So 2 (or 3 or more) will give impression of a movable screen, no?
I cannot see why paper copy (with bar code)in conjuction with passport is insecure.

As for "technical problems" there are a few instances documented on here and additionally the whole blooming "house of digital cards" of the NHS app collapsed last week!
What did the people who only had digital forms who were standing at the frontiers do then? :cry:

It has been suggested that paper copy should be taken as a back-up.
I am just going to (have already actually) take paper copy and forget the digital back-up.
I don't have a compatable device anyway and what's more I don't want one.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by willem jongman »

The EU app has a line of moving people underneath the QR code. You cannot copy that. I know nothing about the NHS system so I will leave that for you to discuss, but it is not very relevant for us in the EU. Beyond this, I think many people are happy with the EU certificate, precisely because it is digital. It is convenient and secure. The EU app is compatible with pretty old versions of Android: my current phone is six years old (mid range model at the time) and is still fully compatible. Just imagine what it would have taken to set up a paper based system for the entire EU. There would not be enough secure printing facilties for a start and it would have involved a multitude of physical operations precisely when we wanted to avoid those for risk of contamination.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by PDQ Mobile »

willem jongman wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:50pm The EU app has a line of moving people underneath the QR code. You cannot copy that. I know nothing about the NHS system so I will leave that for you to discuss, but it is not very relevant for us in the EU. Beyond this, I think many people are happy with the EU certificate, precisely because it is digital. It is convenient and secure. The EU app is compatible with pretty old versions of Android: my current phone is six years old (mid range model at the time) and is still fully compatible. Just imagine what it would have taken to set up a paper based system for the entire EU. There would not be enough secure printing facilties for a start and it would have involved a multitude of physical operations precisely when we wanted to avoid those for risk of contamination.
Don't misunderstand me, I would like the EU certificate!!!
But I am not "clever" enough to use the technology.
Transfering data, passwords etc always ends in tears for both myself and the technology!!
I even struggle to write this stuff!!

You did not say how you feel paper with bar code and in conjuction with a Passport is inferior in security terms? You can't forge the Passport that easily and paper needs to be individually printed to tally surely? Digital is, oh so easily, copied and manipulated.

It's a blooming vaccination certificate for goodness sake, and one that is being shown to have dubious benefits, not the entry code to Fort Knox.

Paper copy remains the best all round and reliable solution IMV.
Though, heaven forbid it might cost Govt a little more!
I consider it a simple right and a service.
My Welsh NHS were suberb at providing it too.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by willem jongman »

We clearly disagree. Anyway, getting started with the EU app was dead easy, even for the most technically challenged.
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mjr
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by mjr »

willem jongman wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:50pm The EU app has a line of moving people underneath the QR code. You cannot copy that.
I have copied lots of animations. That does not seem secure.

What makes the EU app secure is the public key cryptography in the QR code, similar to the NHS one. When a scanner app scans it, a chain of approvals can be checked and it leads to some official body that is willing to say that they believe the person holding whatever identity document has been vaccinated/tested/whatever. That can then be combined with a simpler identity check which places like bars already need to check someone's age.
Just imagine what it would have taken to set up a paper based system for the entire EU. There would not be enough secure printing facilties for a start and it would have involved a multitude of physical operations precisely when we wanted to avoid those for risk of contamination.
Yes, the paper saving alone justifies a display app IMO. But a paper print of a QR code can still be used contactless for verification by a scanner app, reducing contamination opportunity.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
willem jongman
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by willem jongman »

First prosecutions have been initiated against attempts to distribute forged QR codes in a fake app.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by PDQ Mobile »

willem jongman wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 2:13pm We clearly disagree. Anyway, getting started with the EU app was dead easy, even for the most technically challenged.
Willem I do not wish to disagree about this.
I have valued your input greatly.

I simply do not see any benefit to going digital when paper has served me very well.
And digital has proved unreliable for more than a few.

I am technically challenged by stuff like this- it just never goes well for me.
I find it confusing, stressful and thoughly unenjoyable to the point where I could put the thing to rest (with a hammer) forever!
I detest passwords etc.

I am far better politely showing my paper documents and pleading old age and ignorance. I am not likely to be going to many night clubs etc!!
Bogawski
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by Bogawski »

Quite agree, there are lots of people that do not have a "smart phone", me included, and I don't want one. However I may have to purchase one just for travelling abroad. Makes you feel a bit 2nd class.
Psamathe
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Re: Europe 2021

Post by Psamathe »

Bogawski wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 5:27pm Quite agree, there are lots of people that do not have a "smart phone", me included, and I don't want one. However I may have to purchase one just for travelling abroad. Makes you feel a bit 2nd class.
Or you can just print out the code on a piece of paper.

Ian
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