CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

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CJ
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by CJ »

Lets get back on topic, please, with a few misconceptions I need to correct:
tatanab wrote: 1 Jul 2021, 9:04pm
simonhill wrote: 1 Jul 2021, 5:15pmannounce that after 20 years and hundreds of tours across the globe, Cycling UK’s subsidiary trading arm, CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd (CTC H&T) will cease trading in October 2021
Before that the tours were organised by members for members with little input from HQ I imagine. These were days of innocence before insurance, liability, money protection etc came into play. I very much doubt it could happen the same way these days. Notably, people's expectations have changed about level of support and accommodation - prebooked hotels and route sheets for example. My first CTC group tour was in 1974 when things were very different and very much more basic.
CTC has been organising tours far, far longer than twenty years. The first Nationally Organised tour was a round the country, join it here, leave it there affair held a few a years after the club's formation. It's not mentioned in either of the CTC anniversarial history books: 'Romance of the CTC' (at 50) by JT Lightwood, or 'Winged Wheel' (at 100) by W Oakley; but I read about it in a very old Quarterly Bulletin when I worked at CTC HQ. The 'Romance' however, mentions several tours being organised by CTC for groups of visiting cyclists from other countries in the 1880s and in 1887 "the first fully organised foreign tour took place under the guidance of Max Plaum, CC [Chief Consul] for Belgium" (at that time CTC maintained a network of members living abroad, who acted as consuls for the Club).

Such ad hoc events are not quite the same however, as a regular nationally organised programme of holidays, the origins of which are a tour organised in 1928 by Nevill Whall in his capacity as Assistant Secretary, for a party of eleven in the South of France. It was a resounding success and increasing demand assured the development of conducted tours until the outbreak of war in 1939. A ban on foreign travel persisted until 1947, so it wasn't until 1949 that the National Secretary, RC Shaw, toured Sweden with a group of 20. Over 300 members had applied to join this trip, so it was decided that qualified staff should arrange and lead a regular programme of international tours. And so they did, continuously. As the programme expanded, suitably experienced members were encouraged to lead tours on a voluntary basis, but all the booking of hotels and finances continued to be handled by staff at National Office. These volunteers naturally had their own ideas for new tours, for which they did all the planning and made initial enquiries with hotels.

So don't believe CUK's spin. CTC has been organising tours internationally and continuously for more than 70 years, or 80 years in total with a break for WW2.

Though CTC membership declined through the 1950s and 60s, tours in Britain and most parts of the Continent remained popular, averaging 14 per year. When falling membership obliged HQ into smaller premises in Godalming, the Touring Bureau remained in London and in 1967 was developed into a separate company, CTC Travel, that could also sell tickets to the general public. Membership bottomed at 18,727 in 1972 - the year I joined by the way! Around then, someone must've calculated that the cost of staff time in corresponding with the dozen different hotels as might be visited in a fortnight's tour was unsupportable, and CTC Travel was sold off some time later. After then the tour leaders did pretty much the whole job, paying bills out of their own pocket, then claiming expenses from Accounts at HQ, to whom all payments went from participants. The tradition of tours being led by staff lived on as an entitlement to a fortnight's extra paid holiday for any member of staff who qualified to lead a CTC Tour. I was one of very few who did.

So the tours were in fact, originally led by CTC staff. Then by staff and members and eventually by members - a few of whom might also be staff.

Then along came Kevin Mayne, with plans to turn the holidays programme into a cash cow. When leaders didn't cooperate (because going somewhere new is fun, whereas leading the same trip over and over is work!) he wanted CTC Holidays totally out of his sight and hived the enterprise off as a separate company - on the pretext of something to do with liability. From then on, leaders effectively became self-employed agents and were re-named Tour Managers, since now we were risking our own money in organising a tour and doing pretty much everything. And we did it very well, organising lots of interesting holidays for members, different every year, and sending useful annual dividends back to CTC, our one and only shareholder. And in case you're wondering about risk and reward: indeed I have lost serious money leading a tour, when prices and exchange rates haven't gone my way, but generally make a small surplus (that wouldn't come close to paying for my time) and it all goes on my tax return.

That was until 2018, when CUK became greedy for those small surpluses and jealous of our autonomy, so put a couple of new trustees in charge of CTC Cycling Holidays. The rest is history. Or rather: CUK's spin on these events will be. But now you know better.

As for "days of innocence", when were they? The CTC Holidays have always been compliant with regulations, covered by relevant insurances and backed by adequate financial reserves. It was CUK interference - not Covid - that killed it.

As for "1974 and basic", I don't know what tour Tatanab went on but the programme has always been very varied. My first holiday with CTC was the same year as it happens. Superbly planned and executed by Bob Kemp, to the Pyrennees by Boat-Train and staying in nice hotels. I don't call that basic.

And CTC holidays are well up with the times. I have led basic tours, camping unbooked in Poland and Slovakia for example (with a group of 24 and it was great!), but I haven't done anythign like that for years. I wouldn't dream (except in a nightmare) of taking a group on a hotel tour without booking. And everyone gets a really detailed route booklet, plus GPS tracks and courses. Some of my tours also have a support vehicle, but there are still a lot of members who prefer classic, self-sufficient touring. So I'm still running tours, just not for CTC anymore.
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by TrevA »

The one CTC tour that I have done (Inner Hebrides) was with Martin Jamieson, who is now part of the Bikexplore set up. I very much enjoyed it, despite various things going wrong and awful weather. I’d be happy to tour with him again. The CTC tours were expensive but it was nice to be able to just ride your bike through stunning countryside and not have to worry about the route or the accommodation, which was all taken care of by the organiser.
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by eileithyia »

I too was surprised at the 20 year comment, so thanks to CJ for an excellent history of CTC tours abroad, (and at home) quite a few of my friends and acquaintances have been tour leaders. I also know of at least 3 couples who found love while on such tours.
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by PH »

simonhill wrote: 1 Jul 2021, 5:15pm
"The Directors of CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd and the Cycling UK Board sadly announce that after 20 years and hundreds of tours across the globe, Cycling UK’s subsidiary trading arm, CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd (CTC H&T) will cease trading in October 2021. "
Regardless of the politics, the above statement is factually correct, CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd has traded for twenty years. You may feel that it's spin by omission not to have acknowledged what went before, but that doesn't make it false.
For anyone interested, the company details are public, you can follow the comings and goings of directors and view the accounts. Having had a quick glance, the decision makes less sense to me than it did before.
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/04106179
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CJ
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by CJ »

PH wrote: 3 Jul 2021, 5:03pm
simonhill wrote: 1 Jul 2021, 5:15pm
"The Directors of CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd and the Cycling UK Board sadly announce that after 20 years and hundreds of tours across the globe, Cycling UK’s subsidiary trading arm, CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd (CTC H&T) will cease trading in October 2021. "
Regardless of the politics, the above statement is factually correct, CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd has traded for twenty years. You may feel that it's spin by omission not to have acknowledged what went before, but that doesn't make it false.
I didn't say it was false. I did call it spin, which it clearly is, having deceived the author of the other comment I quoted:
tatanab wrote: 1 Jul 2021, 9:04pmBefore that the tours were organised by members for members with little input from HQ I imagine.
The input from HQ was actually much MORE substantial for all the previous 60 years of CTC's official holidays and tours programme.
PH wrote: 3 Jul 2021, 5:03pmFor anyone interested, the company details are public, you can follow the comings and goings of directors and view the accounts. Having had a quick glance, the decision makes less sense to me than it did before.
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/04106179
I'm glad you wrote that. Would you say that it makes sense if since the completion of those accounts, the company's owner has imposed a radically new modus operandi, that increases the company's overheads whilst drastically cutting its turnover, but from which the owner cannot retreat without immense embarrassment? Would you agree that Covid provides a perfect smokescreen for the final act of an asset-stripper, especially one who wishes to get out of the travel business?
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by CJ »

GPC wrote: 2 Jul 2021, 8:53pm
CJ wrote: 2 Jul 2021, 5:02pmThe ONLY thing CTC ever did to help the Tours was to act as guarantor of last resort...
That's not entirely true, as CTC and later Cycling UK also offered a ready made audience for tours, via advertising in the magazine and website to a select audience and wider that was worth a lot of money.
That's not entirely true either. Yes, most of our participants came from the membership, but CTC and later Cycling UK charged handsomely for access to that audience via the magazine. We asked for 'mates rates' but didn't get 'em. Kevin Mayne milked those tourists for every possible penny. So CTC Holidays and Tours paid the same rate for advertising in the magazine as any other holiday company and perhaps even more than some. As I wrote, for many years it was cheaper for the Company to insert our brochure with another magazine: Cycling Plus! As for website, the Company had to buy its own and beg for a link, which was hidden pretty deep by CTC/CUK (presently three layers down, select 'Go Cycling', then the far-from-obvious 'Special Events' and finally plain 'Holidays', which could be any old holidays, but is ours).

The tours were mentioned but rarely in magazine articles or Cycle Clips and this lack of publicity, lack of any joined-up thinking from HQ was a continual, inexplicable and inexcusable problem. When some staff member decided to invent a CTC Tour Leader qualification and training course, did he approach CTC's exisiting body of highly experienced Tour Leaders? What do you think? The first we heard of it was when the course was done, dusted and being delivered by CTC! Was that rude, arrogant, contemptuous or just plain stupid ignorance? We sent a leader on it but it wouldn't do, didn't cover the planning and booking side at all. To field naive applications from people who'd done the course we had to rename ourselves Tour Managers, which to be fair was a better description of the scope of the task. That was until 2019, when CUK moved to reduce us to volunteers. Is management a volunteer role? No I didn't think so either!
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by tatanab »

CJ wrote: 3 Jul 2021, 1:31pmAs for "1974 and basic", I don't know what tour Tatanab went on but the programme has always been very varied. My first holiday with CTC was the same year as it happens. Superbly planned and executed by Bob Kemp, to the Pyrennees by Boat-Train and staying in nice hotels. I don't call that basic.
A tour of Normandy and Brittany, the leader's name, Jim Gower who died many years ago. It was run as a club ride by which I mean no pre-determined route (although Jim obviously had routes in mind) and with most, but not all hotels prebooked. Hotels ranged from something out of the Three Musketeers to a very low grade hotel that was obviously a brothel in Rouen. Our last hotel was one of those that was not booked or named, so we should have stayed together, but youthful exuberance (I was 21) led to a breakaway on the long climb away from Rouen to the west. Three of us sat at the top and waited, but nobody came up and so we had to think which river valley were they most likely to have taken. We chose the wrong one and ended up having to find our own accommodation etc. Being the final day, we knew we had to be in Dieppe for a certain ferry, so had no trouble rejoining the group. The leader said he was not unduly concerned because we were all experienced and self sufficient club riders. I thought the leader, Jim, did an absolutely superb job.

It was an excellent tour, run off just as my local DA would run a tour. Many happy memories. A couple of years later I went to Ireland, a youth hostel tour which again was a group ride. In the last 10 years I have joined CTC tours as a part of a longer tour of my own for a bit of company for a week or more, or even as a reason to make the longer ride.

By basic, I am not knocking the old tours at all - indeed they suited my usual touring where I sought out simple grade youth hostels. I have spoken to modern tour leaders (Tour Mangers) that I know, and all will tell stories about the high expectations that many participants have these days. Different days - different ways, and I will certainly miss the option of joining these groups. I suspect that the CUK "partners" will simply be a list of companies/organisations that don't mind being on that list.

CJ's first tour, with Bob Kemp - I never went on one but I remember that Bob's tours were considered to be "something special".
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by CJ »

simonhill wrote: 3 Jul 2021, 11:41amI don't know about UK or Europe, but I have taken a vague interest in the further afield tours. What struck me most was how expensive they were for tours in very cheap countries. As an example, I did a number of 3 months tours in S Asia in the late 90s early 20s so I was pretty well aware of the cost of touring there. In 2004 I saw a 17 day CTC tour of Kerala and Tamil Nadu (including airfare but not spending) for about £1700. At that time I was doing a 3 month tour that cost a fair bit less (c£1400), including everything. I couldn't see how they could justify such a high price for only 17 days, even if they upped the hotel quality and laid on a sag wagon - both of which are very cheap in India. It was later explained that they had lots of overheads eg insurance, ABTA, etc., but nonetheless it still seemed inordinately expensive to me.
Since the Company is closing I no longer feel bound to any secrecy and will tell you those overheads used to add 10%. But, and it's a big BUT, that goes on top of a whole lot of other allowances a self-employed Tour Manager has to make to limit the risk of a large personal loss. Once the holiday is advertised at a certain price, there is very little scope for increasing it in response to hotel booking problems, exchange rate fluctuations, natural disasters, etc. Any increase has to include the option to cancel and if too many do you're into a double whammy with non-variable costs such as the support vehicle. So you have to price pessimistically. Leave it until exact costs are knowable, and you miss the boat on bookings.
simonhill wrote: 3 Jul 2021, 11:41amI realise that some people want everything organised and are prepared to pay for it, but my concern was that this was advertised as a club trip, organised for club members and so you would expect club prices, not commercial ones. I also seem to remember that when Cycle did an member's article on a DiY tour they didn't show the overall cost. Maybe the price of a coffee or some other whimsical thing would be highlighted, but not the full price. I suspected that this was to protect their expensive tours. Probably many people still don't realise how cheap it can be to tour in far flung lands.
Also bear in mind, "tours in very cheap countries" invariably are organised through local agents, the same local agents used by Red Spokes, Saddle Skedaddle, Exodus, etc. These agents know what our market will stand and price their services accordingly. Since CTC Holidays never did a whole season's business with those agents, we did well to compete with the commercial cycling holiday sector at all.
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by Tiggertoo »

So I'm still running tours, just not for CTC anymore.
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by Tiggertoo »

It is sad to see the CTC Tours go, but folks, it ain't difficult to go on your own
Probably true, but a good friend reminded me that if the only way you will ever do a tour is through a company organising it, then why not?
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by GPC »

CJ wrote: 3 Jul 2021, 6:44pm
GPC wrote: 2 Jul 2021, 8:53pm
CJ wrote: 2 Jul 2021, 5:02pmThe ONLY thing CTC ever did to help the Tours was to act as guarantor of last resort...
That's not entirely true, as CTC and later Cycling UK also offered a ready made audience for tours, via advertising in the magazine and website to a select audience and wider that was worth a lot of money.
That's not entirely true either. Yes, most of our participants came from the membership, but CTC and later Cycling UK charged handsomely for access to that audience via the magazine. We asked for 'mates rates' but didn't get 'em. Kevin Mayne milked those tourists for every possible penny. So CTC Holidays and Tours paid the same rate for advertising in the magazine as any other holiday company and perhaps even more than some. As I wrote, for many years it was cheaper for the Company to insert our brochure with another magazine: Cycling Plus! As for website, the Company had to buy its own and beg for a link, which was hidden pretty deep by CTC/CUK (presently three layers down, select 'Go Cycling', then the far-from-obvious 'Special Events' and finally plain 'Holidays', which could be any old holidays, but is ours).

The tours were mentioned but rarely in magazine articles or Cycle Clips and this lack of publicity, lack of any joined-up thinking from HQ was a continual, inexplicable and inexcusable problem. When some staff member decided to invent a CTC Tour Leader qualification and training course, did he approach CTC's exisiting body of highly experienced Tour Leaders? What do you think? The first we heard of it was when the course was done, dusted and being delivered by CTC! Was that rude, arrogant, contemptuous or just plain stupid ignorance? We sent a leader on it but it wouldn't do, didn't cover the planning and booking side at all. To field naive applications from people who'd done the course we had to rename ourselves Tour Managers, which to be fair was a better description of the scope of the task. That was until 2019, when CUK moved to reduce us to volunteers. Is management a volunteer role? No I didn't think so either!
Fair enough CJ, happy to stand corrected on that and thankyou for putting me right. I thought the Holidays were advertised at mates rates!!
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by uppadine »

I'm very sad to hear this news, having done Lejog with Chris Ellison and about 7 Scottish tours with Gary Cummins, all excellent. The model might not suit everyone - why should it? - but it fulfilled a positive role of helping a good number of people tour in places they might not have visited otherwise.
I can't see the need to scrap one pretty successful arm of CUK in order to remodel it into something else; why not develop and widen the scope of the original format? It's sadly a further step away from the original touring ethos of the club, one which ought to be no threat to the functions and aims of the modern charity. Maybe the abandoned tour leaders might regroup themselves into a new body?
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by CJ »

uppadine wrote: 4 Jul 2021, 2:35pmMaybe the abandoned tour leaders might regroup themselves into a new body?
It's already happened.

Pam Pilbeam saw this coming and split off from CTC Holidays a few years ago, since when she's been running her popular European tours as Cycling for Us. She seems to have weathered the Covid storm without losing too much and has a full programme of tours ready to go in 2022.

When the shape of CUK's 'Volunteer Model' became apparent, Tour Managers tried to negotiate a compromise, but the hand wasn't listening. So ten of us left to form Bikexplore. I've since received an offer from Pam Pilbeam, which suits me as I only do Europe, but I expect that there will now be quite a few more ex-CTC Hols TMs joining Bikexplore.

Of course this is a tricky time to be starting a holiday enterprise and until humanity finds a settled way of living with Covid I'm only taking private tours with groups of 'friends' (ie people who've been on my tours before) and friends of friends, on a pay-what-it-actually-costs and risk-sharing basis. That's okay because 'occasional' holidays for 'limited groups' fall outside the scope of the Package Holiday Regulations. This also means that when local cycling clubs organise occasional tours for members only, they really don't need to worry about falling foul of those Regs, contrary to the discouraging advice about that from Cycling UK (eg on this page under Longer events). They're really not doing much to encourage touring!
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by Tiggertoo »

Very good luck to you and the rest of your team at Bikexplore, Chris.
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Re: CTC Holidays and Tours to Cease Trading

Post by merseymouth »

Great to see that the Pilbeams continue as "Cycling For Us", brilliant!
I can't do the continental stuff but I'm musing over the UK one? They make a tour a pleasure. TTFN MM
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