Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

[toontra]

I have a well tired and tested route from London to (near) Glasgow. If the above hasn't deterred you, pm me for details

[Tyre Lady]

Surely rather than the church divesting from fossil fuel investments a stronger statement would be to stop using fossil fuels. Stop heating churches and manse houses with gas, oil, coal, or electricity. Stop church staff using petrol or diesel cars. Stop wearing clothes made of fibres derived from oil. Stop using plastic bags or bottles.

Cut off the demand rather than supply.

Or is anyone shouting about investments while happy to use the products just a massive hypocrite?

And what are you doing to go carbon zero / negative? Are you campaigning in your own area, talking to your councillors, MPs and the funny man that sits as PM?

The Church of England is working on its congregation, buildings and other parts it can influence to be net zero by 2030. The investments is a part that people tend to forget about. Eco-churches are sprouting up all around the country calling for action.

[Tyre Lady]

who gets to decide?

The OP is the one making the decisons and choices. His choice is one that conflicts with what leading climate change campaigners and scientists tell us we must do.

I am challenging the OP to get a second opinion from someone whose judgement on the issue of climate change is respected. That is the ethical thing to do in a situation like this.

And who would you suggest is a good person to provide a "second opinion"?
There is no black and white..... but many shades of grey. A small example: is bamboo good or bad..... or depends?

Covid has shown us that if the climate crisis was being taken seriously, governments would take a much stronger stance.

Have you read about doughnut economics?

I don't believe that he will do so, because he knows that he would be told that the expected benefits from his trip are insufficient to justify it. The OP is doing this for his own enjoyment and pleasure.

People refusing to recognise the need to make significant personal sacrifices is the biggest problem we face in addressing climate change.

What makes you judge the OP so harshly when you have no idea who he is, what he has done, what he will be doing and who he will be influencing?

[pwa]

The OP acknowledges the problem with flying but feels the reason for doing so makes it justifiable, and is taking mitigating measures that they feel undoes some of the harm. I am not saying that I agree with their conclusions on this, and people flying to get to that event will inevitably look bad in the media, but they have applied their own intellect to the issue rather than simply ignoring it, and they have come to their own conclusions. So I am inclined to respect their decision. If everyone gave so much thought to every possible flight, there would be far fewer flights.

And this wasn't the main thrust of their post, so perhaps we have gone off on a tangent.

[slowster]

And who would you suggest is a good person to provide a "second opinion"?

As I said, "someone whose judgement on the issue of climate change is respected". I've already suggested Greta Thunberg, because I think it is very possible that she would reply if he contacted her via Twitter. I am not familiar with people in the field of climate change campaigning in the USA, but I expect that the OP will know of people whom he could ask for advice.

Covid has shown us that if the climate crisis was being taken seriously, governments would take a much stronger stance.

If the climate crisis was being taken seriously, *people* would take a much stronger stance. For covid the majority of the population were willing to make huge sacrifices in their lives in order to reduce the risks to them and others of getting extremely ill and possibly dying. We need to make similarly major changes and sacrifices in our lives to address climate change, and we need to do that now. The information about the sorts of changes we need to make is already available, and there is broad scientific consensus about much of it.

Some people will not make any change until they are left with no choice. At the other end of the spectrum some people will be at the forefront of making those changes. The latter group will be small in number but large in influence, because of the example they set for the rest of us to follow. Conversely, it is particularly important that those actually involved in climate change campaigning do not set bad examples that, in the eyes of many of the rest of us, discredit the need to make changes.

(One of the reasons why I greatly respect Greta Thunberg is that she is under intense media scrutiny, and any mistake she makes will be seized upon by those who want to discredit her and undermine her effectiveness as a climate change campaigner. That is a huge burden and responsibility for one so young to take on. It is remarkable that so far she appears not to have put a foot wrong. I think that the reason for that is that there is very little pride or ego to her, and that is what gives her so much credibility and makes her such a powerful campaigner and leader.)

Only when enough of the electorate support following those already setting good examples, are the governments of democracies likely to be able to pass legislation restricting the ability of individuals and businesses to have excessive carbon footprints, and imposing much higher taxes on flying etc. Given the sacrifices we all need to make it is vital that those at the forefront of climate change campaigning and activism lead by example. Greta Thunberg's decision not to fly is an example we all need to follow wherever possible.

What makes you judge the OP so harshly

Because he is actively harming the cause for which he advocates and for which he is in a position of leadership, and in so doing he is undermining the hard work and sacrifices of countless others. And I think he knows it.

you have no idea who he is, what he has done, what he will be doing and who he will be influencing

From his second post:

I am representing and reporting to many people including several school classrooms and dedicated activists who cannot attend and support my ride. I'm bringing official letters from many local governments supporting the COP26. I'm reporting from the conference from my regional perspective as a trusted voice to build support for climate action

There is no black and white..... but many shades of grey. A small example: is bamboo good or bad..... or depends?

Given how much CO2 flying pumps into the atmosphere, taking a flight needs to offer a major benefit to be justifiable. The benefit outlined by the OP is not anywhere near that threshold. You say I judge him harshly, and I have indeed written in increasingly stronger terms precisely because it is not too late and he can still decide not to go (or to get that second opinion). I suspect the criticism he is likely to receive in person from campaigners at COP26, and from the pupils in those school classrooms when he returns, may be much more unpleasant to experience, but by then it will be too late.

[pwa]

This little spat illustrates how problematical flying is for folk who aspire to be part of the transition to a low carbon future. For many of us, someone who considers themselves to be green but who continues to fly looks a bit like a self proclaimed vegan who eats no meat Monday to Saturday but eats an entire pig on Sunday. At the very least it doesn't look right. It looks inconsistent.

Maybe the OP is on business so important that it justifies the flight. I don't know whether that is the case or not.
Maybe their offsetting solution stacks up, and helps a bit.
But any activity that would be unsustainable if all 9 billion of us did it seems to me to be iffy at best, and should be avoided in all but exceptional circumstances.

[mattheus]

But any activity that would be unsustainable if all 9 billion of us did it seems to me to be iffy at best, and should be avoided in all but exceptional circumstances.

So walking to COp26 is out too?
Or buying a smartphone and streaming the whole event, with a 6-pack of beer in the fridge?

There are almost no absolutes in this debate, so I smell a rat when anyone is lectured about their considered choices.(which I think you may have stated similar a few posts ago)

[Tyre Lady]

During the years campaigning for the reduction of single use plastic, Western countries tell me to speak to India and China + tossed into the mix...."we recycle our plastics properly". Consumerism blindness! Even now there are people who wishfully place all their plastics into the recycle bins who don't want to reduce because it is not their issue.

As I said, "someone whose judgement on the issue of climate change is respected". I've already suggested Greta Thunberg, because I think it is very possible that she would reply if he contacted her via Twitter. I am not familiar with people in the field of climate change campaigning in the USA, but I expect that the OP will know of people whom he could ask for advice.

Whilst I do like what Greta Thunberg is doing, she would not be my "go to" for advice. At her age everything is black and white and she lacks experience and discernment of the propaganda that will be fed to her.

I tried to lead a green initiative for the Singapore Marathon from the UK. I spent a number of months on my laptop and my machine was on 24/7 in the month leading up to the event (wonder how much CO2 I actually created). My people on the ground were great BUT they failed to create relationships with the organisations as they lacked the skills. I subsequently turned up for the next 2 events in 2018 and 2019 and enabled 50K to make changes as well as Ironman, and got involved with a part of the government. In addition I stayed in Singapore for 6 weeks each time helping other green organisations a couple of corporations as well as the British Council to reduce the amount of waste they were generating. I have skills that have enabled them to move forward by connecting them to government and providing a vision.

There was an Australian woman who called me a hypocrite for "flying" to Singapore. I asked her how did she get to Singapore, why she was there and what was she doing to help create a better planet. Perhaps I am wrong, but in my experience of trying to do everything virtually was barely working if you cannot understand what is happening on the ground as well as how things develop dynamically. Thankfully I did not meet anyone else who took the same stance as the Aussie lady.

If the climate crisis was being taken seriously, *people* would take a much stronger stance. For covid the majority of the population were willing to make huge sacrifices in their lives in order to reduce the risks to them and others of getting extremely ill and possibly dying. We need to make similarly major changes and sacrifices in our lives to address climate change, and we need to do that now. The information about the sorts of changes we need to make is already available, and there is broad scientific consensus about much of it.

Some people will not make any change until they are left with no choice. At the other end of the spectrum some people will be at the forefront of making those changes. The latter group will be small in number but large in influence, because of the example they set for the rest of us to follow. Conversely, it is particularly important that those actually involved in climate change campaigning do not set bad examples that, in the eyes of many of the rest of us, discredit the need to make changes.

I have been helping my local council (Runnymede) with initiatives. In the last couple of months I have asked people to provide a climate action they will take.....there are still a lot of people (and neighbours) that I meet on the streets telling me I should be speaking to China since they are the ones polluting the world and to blame for the global warming! I attended a seminar at Royal Holloway who highlighted that China is dominating the world when it comes to solar farms, yet all we hear in our media is the number of coal fired power stations China has. In China there are still towns that have candle light and no heating in the winter. A lot of people like to tell me they are doing their bit by recycling!

(One of the reasons why I greatly respect Greta Thunberg is that she is under intense media scrutiny, and any mistake she makes will be seized upon by those who want to discredit her and undermine her effectiveness as a climate change campaigner. That is a huge burden and responsibility for one so young to take on. It is remarkable that so far she appears not to have put a foot wrong. I think that the reason for that is that there is very little pride or ego to her, and that is what gives her so much credibility and makes her such a powerful campaigner and leader.)

Only when enough of the electorate support following those already setting good examples, are the governments of democracies likely to be able to pass legislation restricting the ability of individuals and businesses to have excessive carbon footprints, and imposing much higher taxes on flying etc. Given the sacrifices we all need to make it is vital that those at the forefront of climate change campaigning and activism lead by example. Greta Thunberg's decision not to fly is an example we all need to follow wherever possible.

Personally I think the majority of the Western electorate really do not care as they are unable to see how the Climate Crisis is affecting them. We in the West also speak from a position of privilege. How many here would go without a washing machine? Yet in many developing nations they wash their clothes by hand. Global consumerism is driving global warming and poor industrial practices .... Primark, Coca Cola, and so many more. Flying is only the tip of the iceberg.

What makes you judge the OP so harshly

Because he is actively harming the cause for which he advocates and for which he is in a position of leadership, and in so doing he is undermining the hard work and sacrifices of countless others. And I think he knows it.

you have no idea who he is, what he has done, what he will be doing and who he will be influencing

From his second post:

I am representing and reporting to many people including several school classrooms and dedicated activists who cannot attend and support my ride. I'm bringing official letters from many local governments supporting the COP26. I'm reporting from the conference from my regional perspective as a trusted voice to build support for climate action

Given how much CO2 flying pumps into the atmosphere, taking a flight needs to offer a major benefit to be justifiable. The benefit outlined by the OP is not anywhere near that threshold. You say I judge him harshly, and I have indeed written in increasingly stronger terms precisely because it is not too late and he can still decide not to go (or to get that second opinion). I suspect the criticism he is likely to receive in person from campaigners at COP26, and from the pupils in those school classrooms when he returns, may be much more unpleasant to experience, but by then it will be too late.

[/quote]

At the end of the day it sounds like the OP will be representing many who would like to be here. As I said above, it is difficult to create real meaningful relationships with anyone when it is all done virtually. Greta Thunberg helps create awareness, however more people are needed to create change / provide solutions and they will need to find the right organisations to help them effect change in their own environment. Personally I find our world leaders simply talk and there are many like our own PM who believe the Climate Crisis is something that needs to be balanced with the economy. Too many want to dwell on what is normal when normal is destroying our natural world.

Anyhow I prefer to believe people who are going there are going because they will be the rock to create the waves & ripples in their own environment and that they are flying because they have no choice.

@Dascmo - do use https://cycle.travel/ It is an excellent app that this forum introduced me to. You might also consider renting a bicycle from here to reduce the weight you will have on the flight. Would be interesting if you took a Boris bike from London all the way

Have a great adventure and let us know the route you will ride

[mjr]

Would be interesting if you took a Boris bike from London all the way

£300 if you don't return them within 24 hours, so think carefully!

[Tyre Lady]

Would be interesting if you took a Boris bike from London all the way

£300 if you don't return them within 24 hours, so think carefully!

Perhaps do a deal with TFL? (Transport For London)

[pwa]

But any activity that would be unsustainable if all 9 billion of us did it seems to me to be iffy at best, and should be avoided in all but exceptional circumstances.

So walking to COp26 is out too?
Or buying a smartphone and streaming the whole event, with a 6-pack of beer in the fridge?

There are almost no absolutes in this debate, so I smell a rat when anyone is lectured about their considered choices.(which I think you may have stated similar a few posts ago)

We need some principles in order to be consistent in our approach. I ask myself the question "What makes an activity sustainable with regard to climate change?", and the answer, for me, is that if everyone on the planet were able to do it, to the same extent, it would not be a problem. And the fact is, if folk in India and China and Africa use some of their increasing disposable income to join us as people who fly to places, we will be stuffed. Like driving a Ferrari to work, this activity will only seem tolerable as long as most people on the planet are too poor to do it.

Of course there are, for me, acceptable reasons for flying, and the OP thinks they have one. That is for them to sort out.

[thirdcrank]

Seventy years ago, when I asked what was wrong with chucking stones in the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, my dear old dad said "What would happen if everybody did it?"

[Vorpal]

Seventy years ago, when I asked what was wrong with chucking stones in the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, my dear old dad said "What would happen if everybody did it?"

I would like to say that everybody does do it...

According to ICAO’s preliminary compilation of annual global statistics, the total number of passengers carried on scheduled services rose to 4.5 billion in 2019, which is 3.6 per cent higher than the previous year, while the number of departures reached 38.3 million in 2019, a 1.7 per cent increase.

But, actually everybody doesn't, because the most affluent travel *far* more than others, with Europe (as a region, which includes the UK) making up more than a 3rd of global passenger kilometres.

According to Statista https://www.statista.com/statistics/303 ... -airports/ in 2019 the trip purpose, surveyed at UK airports was
43% holiday
38% visiting friends & relatives
17% business
3% other

Recent experience suggests that there are significant opportunities to reduce travel, and especially air travel

And the fact is, if folk in India and China and Africa use some of their increasing disposable income to join us as people who fly to places, we will be stuffed. Like driving a Ferrari to work, this activity will only seem tolerable as long as most people on the planet are too poor to do it.

Increasing air travel in Asia, and especially China has contributed significantly to the global increase. So, that is exactly what we can expect, and it is likely that they will feel they should have the same benefits of travel as people from places that have had the income to travel for decades. What shall we tell them? Sorry, we've used up to much of the planet to let you travel

[thirdcrank]

I thought the issue here was the role of the individual, in particular as an advocate. It's easy for the individual to feel their contribution doesn't matter either in terms of reducing the problems or making them worse. Advocacy is a way of contributing more, but it's important to consider how best to do this and in this case, without making things worse. It's hard (and impossible for me) to see how flying achieves anything in this regard. I think somebody suggested much earlier in the thread that local campaigning was better. That may seem a bit futile, but it only needs enough concerned people to convince two others and on the arithmetic of a chain letter, the entire population of the Earth is convinced by a week on Tuesday. Alternatively, even one person flying halfway round the planet to demonstrate their commitment seems unlikely to convince anybody, while burning a lot of hydrocarbons to no real purpose. Do the offsetting without the flying.

To declare an interest, I'll admit to being to total meanie. Any frugality in my life such as keeping the heating off has largely been motivated by the desire to economise. And I've flown once, on a short pleasure trip twice round Blackpool aerodrome when my Nana took me on a day excursion in September 1954.

[mattheus]

This was my last international flight: