GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Audax67 wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 9:28am
PH wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 10:44am I'll use google maps and headphones for directions in urban areas, or to specific places. Yes I know the arguments about restricting your hearing, though I use ones that limit this, IMO the audio is less of a distraction than looking at a screen.
Illegal when driving or riding in France. 135 € fine.
What's illegal?

Would bone conduction headphones (which don't block normal hearing) with spoken directions fall foul?

I wonder whether my hearing aids would fall foul
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
willem jongman
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by willem jongman »

The challenge is to create tracks on a phone and then transfer them to a Garmin outdoor GPS. This requires an OTG cable. Older Android phones apparently cannot do this, but newer ones can. I get mixed reports on which Garmins are compatible. I bought the cable to use with my Garmin Etrex 30 (my personal favourite because it is light, cheap and has a great battery life), but have not yet tried to connect them.
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

I've always liked the eTrex range, but I think the ease of transferring tracks via Bluetooth swings it for the Edge series. Not having to faff with leads/SD cards/whatever, every time you make a change to your route, is a huge boon.

I use an Edge 520 and send routes to it from (unsurprisingly!) cycle.travel. The 520 doesn't have enough memory for an on-board map but that's fine - the line on the screen is enough for me. If I'm lost then I get the phone out and use that for a few minutes, but the Edge has much better battery life.

I know there are those who swear by Wahoo units, but my experience of dealing with Garmin developer support (super helpful) vs Wahoo (really not interested) makes me stay with Garmin.
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides
Psamathe
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by Psamathe »

stevemelia wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:31am Thanks for all those comments. They are very useful.

In answer to the general question, I will be away for several months (partly because of the new situation created by Brexit) so I will be stopping, meandering, probably following Eurovelo routes but also wanting to understand the geography of the places I am riding through, rather than simply following routes.
....
Similar'ish to the way I tour, pretty well deciding each evening what to do/where to go tomorrow. Each evening I prepare tomorrow's route on https://cycle.travel, download it to my GPS and mostly follow that route (with interesting diversions). In practice I tend to prepare a couple of days in advance just in case I'm somewhere without internet connection, but each evening I decide for tomorrow and adjust/update a couple of days ahead (as and if I have time/power). And having turn by turn allows me to look at the countryside/villages I'm cycling through rather than navigation. That's just what I enjoy about touring, others enjoy other aspects (as well).

Ian
mattheus
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by mattheus »

willem jongman wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 11:33am The challenge is to create tracks on a phone and then transfer them to a Garmin outdoor GPS. This requires an OTG cable. Older Android phones apparently cannot do this, but newer ones can. I get mixed reports on which Garmins are compatible. I bought the cable to use with my Garmin Etrex 30 (my personal favourite because it is light, cheap and has a great battery life), but have not yet tried to connect them.
I looked at doing this with my Etrex 30 - instead of the OTG cable, I decided to try the SD card I already have (could be a mini-SD, I lose track ... ). Worked perfectly, although of course getting the cards in/out can be a pain compared to plugging a cable in. But I saved carrying one more cable!

(*creating* tracks on a phone is a nightmare - screen too small - so I'm more likely to find a track already on the internet. Which could be one I made myself e.g. on RWGPS)

I have little experience in this - 99% of my touring/audaxing has used tracks put on the GPS at home. And/or paper maps :)
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Tigerbiten
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by Tigerbiten »

stevemelia wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:31amThose of you who used phones, did you manage to avoid batteries running out?
Hub dynamo and/or solar panel and/or mains charger plus a power bank or three used as cache batteries.
My Garmin is powered from my hub dynamo and my power bank is charged from a solar panel.
The power bank is then used to recharge my Kindle and any AA I've drained.
I like to wild camp where possible hence going the minimum power usage route of using a paper map and plotting the route by hand.
Therefore I can go for months without needing to recharge anything from the mains grid.
If you're using a phone to navigate then the normal trick is to charge one power bank off a hub dynamo while powering the phone off a second one.
Getting the odd charge from the mains as needed will keep you going.
The less power you generate and/or the more power hungry your devices are the more often you will need to find a mains power source.
It easily possible to charge a big expensive power bank in a campsites office every few days.
Or a small cheap one each night in the toilet block.
I've done both those tricks on the first couple of tours I did before I got my hub dynamo plus solar panel setup

Luck .......... :D
Psamathe
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by Psamathe »

stevemelia wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:31amThose of you who used phones, did you manage to avoid batteries running out?
Solar panel (21W Anker) and cache batteries (2 x 10000mAh) (solar panels only used at camp sites NOT open whilst underway).

Also carry a small USB charger as a few dull/rainy days in a row and things can get "tight" and a lot of camp sites have common rooms with a socket or if desperate a shower block USB charger with cache battery overnight (a risk but a USB charger and cache battery easily replaced and not massively expensive and I've never yet lost one).

Note: Cache batteries are used to optimise getting power from solar panels and because some iPhones will not charge from solar panel. Solar panel has 2 USB output ports so cache battery top-ups allow spare charge to be stored.

I carry a lot of electronics (GPS, phone, tablet, camera, Kindle). Tablet used most days for creating tomorrows route, uploading photos, updating web site, etc. and that is probably highest power consumer.

A few camp sites I've used are happy to lend me a power hook-up adapter (big and heavy things) and allow me to use a pitch power hook-up without charge (probably generous as they see the bike and become helpful and realise I wont be boiling kettles, etc.).

Many campsites will allow you to leave devices on charge in their office overnight but I've never done it as I like an early start normally before the office opens.

Ian
simonhill
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by simonhill »

Steve (OP) are you camping? If not what accommodation?
PH
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by PH »

Audax67 wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 9:28am
PH wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 10:44am I'll use google maps and headphones for directions in urban areas, or to specific places. Yes I know the arguments about restricting your hearing, though I use ones that limit this, IMO the audio is less of a distraction than looking at a screen.
Illegal when driving or riding in France. 135 € fine.
I thought the law forbade wearing something in the ear and therefore those headphones that don't were OK, but I don't particularly want to be arguing the point on the roadside.
st599_uk
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by st599_uk »

I got a Navman Ride 1000 a few years ago, and it's great for riding, but USB OTG is flaky with it (it has 2 disk partitions and tracks go on hte second).

Battery lasts me for 60-70km rides, have to attach a battery pack if going further.

Full maps of all of Europe on board.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
stevemelia
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by stevemelia »

In reply to Jdsk:

2 Why do you think that a "standard Garmin" might not be suitable... the combination of built-in route planning and the ability to enter waypoints to match the required flexibility seems to me to do what you'd like. More, please.

I have just been looking at the Garmins used by members of my club, which confirmed what I thought. They don't show maps; they show directions. If you divert from a programmed route and don't reprogramme it, an algorithm creates a new route for you to follow - one which I, almost certainly, would not choose to follow if I had all the information in front of me.

A Garmin is like a sat nav in a car. It is designed for people who need to move from one place to another whilst minimising their time/distance. It is not designed to help you find the most enjoyable route (most interesting, least hilly, least traffic etc.). You could attempt to work all that out the night before and programme in a route. The people I know always use computers to do that ("too fiddly" on Android devices). One of them actually carries a laptop when he is touring for that purpose, which seems a lot of weight, not to mention the risk of loss/damage/theft.

I take your point that you could insert new waypoints if you are changing your mind, but you would still have to accept the algorithm's decisions about your route between the waypoints. I often do this with Google maps, and usually have to insert many different waypoints to generate my choice of route. It is a nice little game when you are at home in the dry on your own computer. I would not want to play that game out on the road. I would much rather follow a map, which might show a long distance kml route (e.g. the Eurovelo routes) which I could choose to follow or divert from.
stevemelia
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by stevemelia »

DECISION:

Having spent a long time thinking about this, I have decided to buy an additional mobile phone to mount on the handlebars. The Motorola g9 costs £99 from Argos. It comes with a big battery (5000 mAh) and a big screen (6.5 inches).

I have downloaded the maps.me app and will download the maps I need and use the phone without a sim card - and for no other purpose - so the battery should last longer. How well this will all work, I am about to find out...
Jdsk
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by Jdsk »

stevemelia wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 12:20pmI have just been looking at the Garmins used by members of my club, which confirmed what I thought. They don't show maps; they show directions. If you divert from a programmed route and don't reprogramme it, an algorithm creates a new route for you to follow - one which I, almost certainly, would not choose to follow if I had all the information in front of me.
I'm not sure what devices you've looked at... many Garmin devices show maps...

Jonathan

PS: Have fun with the 'phone, and please let us know how it goes.
willem jongman
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by willem jongman »

I think you have completely misunderstood what a proper outdoor Garmin like my Etrex 30 does. First, I have a detailed topo map of all of Europe as a background. If I zoom in sufficienctly, and depending a bit on the quality of the Openfietsmap for that country, I can see every little trail and sometimes even every individual house. Second, the standard way to use them is to use tracks rather than routes. WIth routes the thing is recalculating all the time, like your car satnav. That consumes a lot of energy, and presupposes a map that has all the necessry information to calculate a route of the kind that you like, i.e. for bicycles. With tracks, you copy a preconstructed track onto your Garmin, and you just keep the little triangle indicating your current position on the purple line of the track. You either copy these tracks in advance from the sites of routebooks, or you create one yourself. So when I ride to the south of France or whatever, I buy a routebook that has the quietest roads and trails, and copy the tracks that come with the book onto my Etrex, all of this before I leave. So it is not really different from using books like those from Esterbauer etc. Of course, if and when you want to change your plans it gets more complex, but that is different story.
Psamathe
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Re: GPS Systems for Long-Distance Touring

Post by Psamathe »

stevemelia wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 12:20pm ....
I have just been looking at the Garmins used by members of my club, which confirmed what I thought. They don't show maps; they show directions. If you divert from a programmed route and don't reprogramme it, an algorithm creates a new route for you to follow - one which I, almost certainly, would not choose to follow if I had all the information in front of me.
...
My Garmin shows me a map. It pops-up a banner when you get close to a turning (and/or shows a small banner distance to next turn).

If you divert from a route, what can it do other than use an algorithm; a phone app will do exactly the same. On tour I have periodically diverted from the route I'd prepared, I ignore it's recalculated route for a bit (sometimes looking at the map it displays, sometimes using sign-posts, sometimes taking a road round the hill rather than over it, etc.
stevemelia wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 12:20pm ....
A Garmin is like a sat nav in a car. It is designed for people who need to move from one place to another whilst minimising their time/distance. It is not designed to help you find the most enjoyable route (most interesting, least hilly, least traffic etc.). You could attempt to work all that out the night before and programme in a route. The people I know always use computers to do that ("too fiddly" on Android devices). One of them actually carries a laptop when he is touring for that purpose, which seems a lot of weight, not to mention the risk of loss/damage/theft.

I take your point that you could insert new waypoints if you are changing your mind, but you would still have to accept the algorithm's decisions about your route between the waypoints. I often do this with Google maps, and usually have to insert many different waypoints to generate my choice of route. It is a nice little game when you are at home in the dry on your own computer. I would not want to play that game out on the road. I would much rather follow a map, which might show a long distance kml route (e.g. the Eurovelo routes) which I could choose to follow or divert from.
I would disagree that a dedicated cycling GPS is about getting you from one place to another minimising time/distance. There are many other factors that the device "considers", quite a few of which you can control (e.g. avoid tolls, avoid ferries). You can even enable route weighting according to route popularlty by other cyclists (i.e. it places greater weight to routes used by more cyclists).

You never have to follow what your GPS says you should do. To blindly follow a GPS instruction is how we get to periodically see press photos of lorries stuck under a bridge or in a river.

Force of circumstances one tour I ended-up using on device (Garmin) route creation for a month and the routes it provided were fine, not up to cycle.travel (they were slightly longer but they certainly were cycle friendly).

You need to be careful about what you expect your algorithmically created routes to do. They will not decide to route you past a particlarly beautiful church as many cyclists would not be interested in a church. They wont send you past a cafe every 2 hours as many cyclists wont want the detours for cafe stops. Phone apps use algorithms in just the same way as dedicated GPS. Some dedicated GPS units are running Android anyway (just without a GSM phone chip).

Nothing wrong with getting a phone if that meets your needs but don't expect a phone app to do magic that a dedicated GPS can't or doesn't do. In reality dedicated GPS companies probably have more resource that most phone app developers plus some (e.g. Garmin) have a wealth of real world data from cyclists who upload their tracks (and grant Garmin permission to analyse them). e.g. OSMAnd does routing but on iPhone I found it a disaster. Try to create a route for a good day ride and it just eaty battery until you eventually kill the app and try again, repeat and then discover if you are having problems you need to create 2 routes, one for the 1st part, a 2nd for the last part.

Ian
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