Tubing

[BikeBuddha]

Hi Everyone...

I was about to purchase the bike, but the tubing offered is now different.
Originally it was REynolds 525. Now a generic steel is offered, or the Reynolds at at £90 premium. The bike prices are going through the roof, and the Rohloff Hub has increased significantly, So I am anxious to buy bike soon.


As regards the tubing (according to Oxford Bike Works):

The generic tube material is identical in composition. Reynolds 525 has tube thicknesses of 0.8mm at the butts and 0.5mm in the centres of the tubes.
The generic tubing is 0.9mm at the butts and 0.6mm in the centres. This translates to a 90g weight difference, but an increase in strength. If you would prefer the Reynolds tubing, that is now a £90 option.


Would you go for the reynolds or generic? I do intend to tour everywhere with the bike.

Best wishes


Nick

[willem jongman]

I like thin walled tubing, and my own bike indeed has 0.8/0.5 mm tubes (mostly Reynolds 853). What also matters, however, though more for stifness than strength, is diameter. My downtube is some 35 mm and the toptube some 31mm. So the next question is how much you weigh and how much lugage you plan to take.

[Vantage]

If you're able to test rise both versions of the bike and discover that the Reynolds labelled frame is £90 nicer handling then by all means go for it. If you can't test ride them both, you won't know what your missing from the Reynolds and so doesn't make sense to spend that £90.

I started on a £450 Dawes Vantage framed by 6106 (or (something) alloy and handled perfectly with front and rear loads. By comparison, the much more expensive bike I've built using a Reynolds 725 frame handles like a limp noodle fully loaded.

[Bonefishblues]

I found these a good read:

https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cy ... ike-frames

https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cy ... e-tourists

What does Richard recommend?

[slowster]

OBW Rohloff frames are custom built in the UK according to their website, and although the builder is not specified on the page for the Rohloff model, elsewhere OBW state that their custom built frames are made by Lee Cooper.

I would rather have a frame made with bog standard cro-mo by Lee Cooper than a frame made with 853 or any other tubing by some of the recent crop of new framebuilders who build overpriced 'artisan' frames with lots of fancy detailing, but do not have even a tenth of Lee Cooper's experience.

If OBW are using the generic tubing and Lee Cooper is happy building with it, I would trust that the end product should be good.

The only question is whether there is a significant functional performance difference between the two tubesets when built up into that type of frame.

Given the nature of the frame and the bike into which it will be built, the weight difference is irrelevant. Strength is probably also so similar that any difference is negligible. Thicker walls in the centre will probably give a tiny increase in dent resistance in the event of careless handling, but I would not let that influence me.

As Willem Jongman states, the diameters of the tubing will have more effect on its stiffness than the wall thicknesses, and presumably either version of the frame would use the same diameter down tube, seat tube etc.

For an expedition style tourer like the OBW bikes, the priority will be that the frame is stiff enough to cope with fully loaded panniers for touring. The bike I use for lugging two heavily loaded rear panniers of shopping on a route consisting mainly of off-road tracks also has a Rohloff. Stiffness of the frame to cope with the weight is critical. The tubing used in my frame is undoubtedly cro-mo, but I don't know any more about it such as the tube thicknesses, because the bike brand does not publicise the details and frankly I don't care. I relied on the manufacturer to make a frame that was fit for purpose, and the manufacturer has a good reputation and the frame itself is a long established tried and tested model.

My advice to you would be not to try and second guess OBW about which is the best choice of tubing. I would simply ask them if there is any noticeable difference in frame stiffness with the two tubesets, and whether they would have any particular recommendation for someone of your weight, height/frame size, with your planned usage. If there is a difference, it is probably marginal. The only other thing I might ask is how many frames have been built to date using the generic tubing, i.e. I would prefer not to be the first customer for it, and would rather wait until OBW had received feedback (or possibly better, had received no feedback, IYSWIM) from the first customers of that tubing.

[fastpedaller]

It (the Reynolds tubing & sticker) wouldn't be critical for me. I have a PlanetX built with a generic db tubing and it rides very well - in fact it's a favourite ride. This is what PX said about the tubing in 2014 when I bought the frame:-
Our tubing (DN6) comes from a company called Founderland in Taichung, Taiwan. Off the same lines, the same material, the same dies, everything, Reynolds have Founderland put the same tubing into boxes with "Reynolds 520" on it.

This may not be the case with 'your' generic tubing, but gives some indication of what may occur in the industry.

[slowster]

the much more expensive bike I've built using a Reynolds 725 frame handles like a limp noodle fully loaded.

I would want to try to get to the bottom of why that was. In your shoes I would book a test ride of the Wayfarer demonstrator in your size at Spa in order to compare it with your bike (I am assuming a rear rack is fitted to the demonstrator which would allow you to fit your loaded panniers for the test ride). Moreover - if only to have the benefit of another comparison point - if possible I would also try to fit in a test ride of the D'Tour disc tourer at the same time.

Online feedback on the Wayfarer is fairly limited, and the number of people with the smallest size frame like yours is probably a relatively small percentage of Wayfarer owners (i.e. if it were to be the case that the problem was particular [or more likely to occur] in that size). Nevertheless it seems odd that so far no one else has reported similar experience to you. Hence why I think it would clarify matters to test ride the demonstrator (and also compare with the D'Tour if possible).

I imagine it's possible that there might be a fault in the frame, although with welded frames I think it's much less likely that a fault would go undetected by the manufacturer or Spa (contrast with UK built Dawes lugged frames which apparently had a high rate of poorly made frames with the lugs concealing very poor brazing). Nevertheless with any manufacturer there is probably always likely to be a very small percentage of frames which are not up to scratch but get through quality control.

[BikeBuddha]

Thanks everyone. That is certainly food for thought.

I live on the north end of skye, so just focused on one manufacturer. I am going on the OBW. Its expensive, and I haven't done any touring before. But I am also OCD, which worries me, as I have to get the best bike I can, and do not reason things out too well.

Still stuck on belt drives vs chains, as well. OBW does not seem to like the belt drives, saying it weakens the frame, and they are not so great. The go who does cycling about, and is sponsured by Koga, loves them. Maybe another thread, but will search forum first.

Thanks again.

PS. Maybe I will end up having a bike to sell after I buy it. Any offers?

[pwa]

For touring, I would value the extra dent resistance of a slightly thicker walled central section of tube (especially top tube) rather than the extra springiness of a slightly thinner walled tube. 0.6mm sounds better than 0.5mm to me, in a tourer. And I would expect the no-name chromo to be of a decent standard, lacking nothing compared to Reynolds 525. Except a sticker. You won't feel 90g either. I'd choose the non-Reynolds frame even if the two frames were the same price.

[Bonefishblues]

PS. Maybe I will end up having a bike to sell after I buy it. Any offers?

That's the earliest case of buyer's regret I can remember!

[PH]

Buying a bike is always a leap of faith, you have to trust the designer to know what they're doing, the fabricator to do a good job and the brand to control the quality of both. The best your research can do is eliminate some bikes that would be unsuitable, that still leaves a big pool from which luck plays a big part in finding the one. There's no guarantee you'll get it perfect, I've got it wrong several times, not kept bikes others love, the opposite of that is it's unlikely you'll get something that isn't perfectly adequate. I'm not a huge fan of test rides other than for entertainment, it takes me a lot longer to decide if I like something.
I don't know the gauge of all the bikes I've had, if it's made a difference it's been as part of the overall rather than a defining characteristic. You never know how much of this matters, I have nothing against bike builders being opiniated, or that these opinions differ, why would you buy from someone who didn't think they could do it better? You'll hear the importance of seamless tubing, or heat treated, or the curve of the fork... If you like what they say and there's enough other people that agree, take the leap.

I see no explanation from OBW for the change in gauge, these are not uncommon specifications, they could have stuck with 8/5/8 in generic tubing, and I think Reynolds offer a choice of 9/6/9, so it isn't just the change of supplier. Maybe they think it makes no difference, but then why offer the choice? Thorn for example, use 8/5/8 on the sporty models and 9/6/9 on the tourers, both in Reynolds and generic.
Bottom line is, if you think OBW are offering what you want, go with their recommendation. If you think they'd compromise a bike for the sake of £90, find another supplier.

[PH]

Our tubing (DN6) comes from a company called Founderland in Taichung, Taiwan. Off the same lines, the same material, the same dies, everything, Reynolds have Founderland put the same tubing into boxes with "Reynolds 520" on it.

To be fair to Reynolds I've read on their own website that 520 is 525 made by others under license, so it's no secret.

[PH]

OBW Rohloff frames are custom built in the UK according to their website, and although the builder is not specified on the page for the Rohloff model, elsewhere OBW state that their custom built frames are made by Lee Cooper.

I've just had a look at their website, the first time recently, it now states "All our bikes are built around our fillet-brazed double-butted steel frame, built by Lee Cooper"
https://www.oxfordbikeworks.co.uk/models/overview

For me, that would only influence my choice if I particularly wanted British built and/or fillet brazed. If I wasn't already sure the bike would be well constructed, I wouldn't have been looking at the brand, and although the builder has an excellent reputation, it isn't necessarily built the way he would choose (That's not to say he would do anything he considered inappropriate, just that he might make difference choices)

[PhilD28]

Hi Everyone...

I was about to purchase the bike, but the tubing offered is now different.
Originally it was REynolds 525. Now a generic steel is offered, or the Reynolds at at £90 premium. The bike prices are going through the roof, and the Rohloff Hub has increased significantly, So I am anxious to buy bike soon.


As regards the tubing (according to Oxford Bike Works):

The generic tube material is identical in composition. Reynolds 525 has tube thicknesses of 0.8mm at the butts and 0.5mm in the centres of the tubes.
The generic tubing is 0.9mm at the butts and 0.6mm in the centres. This translates to a 90g weight difference, but an increase in strength. If you would prefer the Reynolds tubing, that is now a £90 option.


Would you go for the reynolds or generic? I do intend to tour everywhere with the bike.

Best wishes


Nick

What height are you. Tube length has far more effect on stiffness than wall thickness, as does the amount of load the frame is intended to carry. Is this frame to be used for day touring, B&B/hostelling, or camping touring. These are questions of more importance than the difference of 0.1mm in wall thickness.

I would agree that Lee Cooper really knows his stuff and will certainly have had some input in any frame design he is building for OBW.

Another option is to look at Thorns frames, they are made in Taiwan but to the highest standards using excellent tubing, their frames are designed from many years of real touring experience using Rohloff hubs. Both their Raven and Mercury are excellent choices.

[Jamesh]

Think about the main use of the bike.

If everyday unloaded with occasional panniers get the thinner tubing.

If touring multiple times a year to far flung places get the thicker tubing..

Cheers James