Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

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skin
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Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby skin » 5 Apr 2010, 3:18am

Greetings
i have recently returned to cycle touring after a lengthy break, well i say "touring" i have a Merlin hardtail MTB with a toepeak rear box that just about holds enough for an overnighter in the New Forest, and now i have the yearning for a drop barred fastish tourer carrying about 7-10 kilos fully loaded, as i have been away for a few years i have been doing some online research and have been looking at the rohloff mech as preached by Thorn, i like the idea of almost zero maintenance compared to trad ders but frankly the Thorn bikes themselves leave me a little cold.
What i am after is a drop barred tourer with (gasp) disc brakes and maybe a Rohloff hub, i am sure if i suggested this set up to Thorn i would be burnt as a heretic :D
So has anyone heard of a similar machine or maybe has had first hand experience of rohloffs and discs?, i would want to activate the rohloffs via a grip mount on the straights and have seen a German 2 piece kit that will allow me to do this, but i bet it's a bitch to fit and it would be much simpler to buy a ready made, i guess my budget is around £1500 all in (complete bike and possibly racks pedals etc) is this hopelessly optimistic?.
Failing this could anyone recommend a good fast tourer for this kind of cash?
Any advice gratefully received, i cant be the only one to dream up a set up like this, can i?

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531colin
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby 531colin » 5 Apr 2010, 8:21am

If it exists in your head, you can make it exist physically. Theres 2 threads on this very forum which will show you others bikes and others ideas, one about drops vs straights, and one about discs. Personally i like to go off road, which explains my current fascination with discs, but I also prefer derraillers to any hub gear I have seen. I cant understand Thorns bike for low maintainance off road UK winter riding........with rim brakes....Eh?
I cant think of a frame for fast touring with disc mounts and Rohloff fittings. ( I say that so all those who know one will get on here and correct me :wink: )
But theres cyclo cross frames......

EDIT OOPS! Already it looks like I'm out of date on Thorns :oops:
Last edited by 531colin on 5 Apr 2010, 8:33am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby Cunobelin » 5 Apr 2010, 8:25am

The Thorn Nomad (slightly above your budget) is equipped for a rear disc brake, and there is a disc specific Rohloff hub.

Also there are a number of options to mount the changer on drop barrd bikes, from the HubJub bar extension that mounts it on the end of the bars to mounting it on the Stem.

Thorn are very accommodating with design, but don't like disc brakes on touring bikes.

They do disc braked options on the Sterling as well. Their "Policy"on discs v v brakes is explained on page 4 of the brochure downloadabe from here

PH
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby PH » 5 Apr 2010, 10:03am

My 2ps worth, as someone who has had a Thorn Raven for a few years and just had a custom Ti frame built to transfer the hub into;
Disks - I was tempted for the front, really don't see the need on the back. If you're concerned about rim wear, use the Rigida Carbide rims that last several times longer than plain alu. If you're going for a fast tourer I expect you want 700c wheels, you're already restricted to 32 spokes, why add to the rear wheel strain. There's a few disk forks to choose from, in the end I stuck with rim brakes (with carbide rims)as I already had the wheel & dynamo.
Drop bars - I'd love there to be a proper Rohloff drop bar shifter, I don't think it's ever going to happen. It's technically hard, the hub has all the indexing in it and the amount of cable pull to make that work is huge compared to derailleur. There's a few compromises, including the one you've mentioned, or a fitting to use it on the bar end, or a stem mount. To me part of the advantage of hub gears is their ease of changing, so I tend to change gear a lot more often than with a derailleur. I wouldn't consider mounting the shifter anywhere I wouldn’t hold while riding in all conditions. For me that means flat bars, there's enough choice to find something to offer the right positions for comfort, aerodynamics and variety, OK maybe not as good as drops, but it's a smaller compromise on the bars than it would be on the shifter.
Budget - Sorry, you're not going to do it for £1,500. Well not with a purpose built frame and all new components. You can use a Rohloff in any frame, with a torque arm and chain tensioner. Bit of a compromise, but a lot more options. I met someone who had a Rohloff in a Surley Crosscheck frame with a Salsa disk fork and the shifter on the bar end, that's the closest I've seen to your spec and probably not to far over budget.
Rohloff frames I considered;
Van Nicholas Amazon
Velotraum http://velotraum.de/
Or most custom steel builders would sort you out, Bob Jacksons have made a few, price around £100 extra
Or the option I went for custom Ti from XACD http://www.xacd.com.cn/index1.htm

Having said all that, my fast touring bike has drops and Campag/Shimano mix. And I have no intention of changing it, horses for courses.

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531colin
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby 531colin » 5 Apr 2010, 11:16am

I do know about wheels . One of the advantages of Rolhoff is the wheel is un-dished, so if the correct rim with angled spoke holes is used, the 32 spoke rolhoff wheel is more durable than a dished 36 spoke wheel. A hub brake does not add significantly to the strain on the spokes as all the spokes carry the braking strain, unlike the load, which alters the tension in a few spokes at a time and leads to fatigue. So there you are, I dont want a Rolhoff, but I can recognise some advantages.

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meic
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby meic » 5 Apr 2010, 11:19am

Van Nicholas make a Rohloff version of the Amazon.

I think it normally comes with straight bars for the sake of the changer but you can have that adapted and possibly with VN you may be able to have that done before buying so you dont have to pay for unwanted bits.
I think all VN frames come with disc brake fittings.

The end result would I think be one fantastic but expensive machine
Yma o Hyd

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al_yrpal
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby al_yrpal » 5 Apr 2010, 11:38am

On the Rohoff web site, theres this.... http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/media/Her ... .en_01.pdf

It reveals that only Thorn is doing Touring Bikes with Rohoff in the UK, but there are loads of German and continental manufacturers. There is also a very handy thingy on the site that works out if you can fit a Rohoff to an existing frame. I would think that it would be quite easy to adapt some bikes with a rebuilt wheel, but why not buy from Germany?

I have gone for a slightly adapted Carrera commuting bike to get discs. As it has Truvativ/SRAM gears, I am dead happy with that having had them on a previous mountain bike adapted for touring.

How about this? http://www.herkelmann-fahrraeder.de/pageID_5236184.html

Al
Last edited by al_yrpal on 5 Apr 2010, 11:53am, edited 1 time in total.
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby PH » 5 Apr 2010, 11:50am

531colin wrote: A hub brake does not add significantly to the strain on the spokes as all the spokes carry the braking strain, unlike the load, which alters the tension in a few spokes at a time and leads to fatigue. So there you are, I dont want a Rolhoff, but I can recognise some advantages.


I don't think it's as well established as you think it is. A quick google reveals there's plenty of disagreement. What is well established is that there is a twisting force which can pop a front wheel out of the dropouts is they're not done up properly. That force isn't there with rim brakes and is an extra strain on the components.
Yes the undished wheel is stronger, Rohloff make disk hubs so I'm sure it's fine, I just can't see the point of adding stress (and complication) where it has so little advantage.

skin
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby skin » 5 Apr 2010, 12:03pm

Guys thanks you so much for the feedback, yep it is looking increasingly likely that a mere £1500 wont get the ball rolling on this project (have i been away THAT long, the prices of everything make me wince) and there certainly seems there is no one around who sells a complete bike to these specs.
At the moment i do not have the technical ability to even consider putting a bike together myself especially one that involves so many unfamiliar parts, so i guess for the time being i will be looking at a more traditional route, 700c wheels, rim brakes and ders, so to open a new train of argument, what's the best deal out there for the sort of cash i am thinking of spending?, i quite like the Paul Hewitt bikes i have seen but am open to ideas.
cheers all

mw3230
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby mw3230 » 5 Apr 2010, 12:12pm

skin wrote: ............, what's the best deal out there for the sort of cash i am thinking of spending?, i quite like the Paul Hewitt bikes i have seen but am open to ideas.
cheers all


That's whole new kettle of different ball games you let loose ....... stand by for 10 pages of discussion. Can I start it by recommending that old faithful - the Dawes Galaxy in it's various incarnations. Don't think I've seen a bad word said about them. They have a very loyal following and a bombproof reputation. I've ridden mine up hill and down dale for over 10 years with nothing like the meticulous maintenance some recommend and it's not let me down once. All I've really spent was the upgrade to Sora shifters to replace the standard bar end shifter. A good bike!!
Retired and loving it

glueman
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby glueman » 5 Apr 2010, 12:40pm

Taking your fast tourer desire at face value, Rohloff hubs and disc brakes will compromise ultimate lightness. Whether that's an acceptable price/weight pay off, only you can decide. Getting a disc/Rohloff equipped bike to the sub 20 lb category modern cyclists think of as 'light' would mean some very exotic frame materials and components indeed.

A sub-30 lbs 'club' bike would be a more realistic goal with the equipment mentioned.

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531colin
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby 531colin » 5 Apr 2010, 12:43pm

PH wrote:
531colin wrote: A hub brake does not add significantly to the strain on the spokes as all the spokes carry the braking strain, unlike the load, which alters the tension in a few spokes at a time and leads to fatigue. So there you are, I dont want a Rolhoff, but I can recognise some advantages.


I don't think it's as well established as you think it is. A quick google reveals there's plenty of disagreement. What is well established is that there is a twisting force which can pop a front wheel out of the dropouts is they're not done up properly. That force isn't there with rim brakes and is an extra strain on the components.
Yes the undished wheel is stronger, Rohloff make disk hubs so I'm sure it's fine, I just can't see the point of adding stress (and complication) where it has so little advantage.


For the braking strain on the spokes I'm relying on Jobst Brandt's book, sure all sorts of people will disagree. I thought we were talking about rear wheels, but i put my front disc hereImage so I could use a regular mudguard, but it also has the "advantage" of tending to push the wheel into place if the Q/R is not tight enough - but why not just do up the Q/R? My bike is for rough stuff, so i am hoping for great advantages over rim brakes in mud . I also use a standard rear carrierImage

skin
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby skin » 5 Apr 2010, 1:13pm

Sorry but i will never ride another Dawes of any description.
The reason i was out of cycle touring for so many years is that a pedal sheared off on the Dawes Horizon i was riding whilst descending VERY steep hill in Dorset a few years ago.
This resulted in me getting flung over the bars and head first onto a gravel track whilst the bike was hit by a van coming the other way, the bike was a write off and i very nearly was as well, now i know that odd accidents happen but what REALLY annoyed me was Dawes response to the incident, first they accused me of hideously maltreating the bike (it was a year old when the pedal failed) refused point blank to take any responsibility, and finally when i sent them the crank arm/pedal they, in an act of generosity that shall echo down the ages, offered to replace the pedal, with a CHEAPER one!!!!!.

Now i am sure that such appalling customer service doesn't continue to this day, but i was tainted for life (not to mention scarred, a dislocated left knee, extensive facial scarring, 18 inches of stitching and a tendency to foam at the mouth with rage at any mention of the D word)

Back to the original topic, i have had some fun with the Koga bike building app here
http://www.koga-signature.com/Build-You ... anguage=en
But at 3.5 grand it is a little out of my price range, trying to think outside the box i started looking at some cyclo cross bikes, strong enough to take some luggage and able to cope with some gravel track stuff especially if i invest in some of these rather spiffing custom panniers
http://carouseldesignworks.com/main.html

The idea was sparked by this very lovely bike, very close to my original idea but minus the rohloff
http://www.flickr.com/photos/carouselde ... 404808139/
Perhaps a mad idea but one i am warming to, and just a little bit of me enjoys the idea of the pop eyed looks of disbelief that it would attract from the more "traditional" tourists, ESPECIALLY you bill who all those years ago stated with blinding confidence "get yourself a Dawes nipper, you will never regret it" Grrrrrr

PS...how do i post pictures on the thread?

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531colin
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby 531colin » 5 Apr 2010, 1:24pm

to post pics http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35716 scroll down to post from Gaz, who saved my sanity at the time
Have you seen Salsa Fargo? Very like my bike and the one you posted

westofsouth
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Re: Drop barred, disc equiped, rohloff fast tourer.does it exist

Postby westofsouth » 5 Apr 2010, 1:53pm

Recently assembled a Surley LHT 700c with a Rohloff. Total cost approx £1500.
No previous experience of bike building, but found a good 'idiots guide' to follow.
So far covered about 1200 miles without problems. :)