Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
rollinbone
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby rollinbone » 11 May 2013, 12:50pm

Just to put in a word about Satmaps Xpedition see these posts
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=70983&p=616256&hilit=xpedition#p616256

visionset

Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby visionset » 13 Dec 2013, 11:18am

Just to add to the debate of Google Map vs other onlline tools such as BikeRouteToaster, BikeHike and RideWithGPS

GoogleMaps offers the most powerful route design feature of being able to drag the route about whilst it also re autoroutes (follows logical roads) between these dragged (via) points. This produces a route very rapidly and give the most flexibility. It is a non linear way to produce a route. Other methods I've seen in other apps are purely linear. The majority of my rides I don't care too much about the order of the route but I want it to be a certain distance and go to certain areas, or use specific roads I've yet to explore. Only GoogleMaps has the power to do this quickly.

It is not a palava if you use the cuesheet bookmarklet which converts the route to TCX or GPX in a single click. This only works with the original google map version though.

When new mac arrives and I have the power to use new google maps I'll be looking into (or writing) a solution for that.

Cuesheet bookmarklet - just use this as the url in a bookmark and click after creating a route in googlemaps V1

javascript:(function(){var%20script=document.createElement('script');script.src='https://www.winthefight.org/googlemap_cuesheet.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);})()

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 13 Dec 2013, 11:56am

visionset wrote:GoogleMaps offers the most powerful route design feature of being able to drag the route about whilst it also re autoroutes (follows logical roads) between these dragged (via) points. This produces a route very rapidly and give the most flexibility. It is a non linear way to produce a route. Other methods I've seen in other apps are purely linear. The majority of my rides I don't care too much about the order of the route but I want it to be a certain distance and go to certain areas, or use specific roads I've yet to explore. Only GoogleMaps has the power to do this quickly.


Ahem. :)

cycle.travel (disclaimer: my site) also does that, and because it's OSM-based, it has more cycling data than Google. UK-only (at present), can export as GPX or indeed as a nice printable PDF map.
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binsted
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby binsted » 13 Dec 2013, 3:07pm

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
visionset wrote:GoogleMaps offers the most powerful route design feature of being able to drag the route about whilst it also re autoroutes (follows logical roads) between these dragged (via) points. This produces a route very rapidly and give the most flexibility. It is a non linear way to produce a route. Other methods I've seen in other apps are purely linear. The majority of my rides I don't care too much about the order of the route but I want it to be a certain distance and go to certain areas, or use specific roads I've yet to explore. Only GoogleMaps has the power to do this quickly.


Ahem. :)

cycle.travel (disclaimer: my site) also does that, and because it's OSM-based, it has more cycling data than Google. UK-only (at present), can export as GPX or indeed as a nice printable PDF map.


Just put in a test route and the on the summary the following, (Total length: 184mi (20hr 48m). Includes 1.8mi on A roads; 10mi unsurfaced (estimate).)

Just a bit concerned about the unsurfaced, what is your definition or is this cycle paths?

OK answered it, it appears gravelled tracks or bridleways.

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Mick F
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Mick F » 13 Dec 2013, 3:14pm

Richard Fairhurst wrote:Ahem. :)

cycle.travel (disclaimer: my site) also does that, and because it's OSM-based, it has more cycling data than Google. UK-only (at present), can export as GPX or indeed as a nice printable PDF map.
One Fairhurst to another! :D

Just tried your routing from Gunnislake to Tavistock.
Sorry, but the route it comes up with is a bit daft.
Screen shot 2013-12-13 at 15.06.21.png
The route takes you up a very steep shortcut (locally known as the first shortcut.
Then it takes you up another very steep hill (locally known as the second shortcut)
Then, you cross the Bere Alston road and go along another shortcut (locally known as the first cutoff)

These roads are VERY busy and fast with all the traffic bombing along to cut off the longer route round. They are all rat-runs and are to be avoided by bicycles. It's bad enough being a pedestrian! :shock:

Farr better from Gunny to Tavy, is to stay on the main road and there's nothing to be gained at all by going via Mill Hill.

I picked Gunny to Tavy because there's only one way to get between the two unless you want to go sightseeing, but whatever route you fancy you have to use the main road for the first two or three miles.

Yes, I know I'm being picky, but I've yet to see a better route planner than BikeHikeUk. You pick out the route where you want to go and it comes up with a simple solution.
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simonineaston
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby simonineaston » 13 Dec 2013, 3:15pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Gearoidmuar wrote:
Mick F wrote:Grief! What a palarva!
.

Is a Palarva a friendly young baby insect?
...for the tyro.

Wrong, mate - a 'tyro' is an adult 'palava' - ask anyone from Urguay! ;-)
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

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Mick F
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Mick F » 13 Dec 2013, 3:24pm

This is the easy route.
It takes 25mins:
Screen shot 2013-12-13 at 15.19.37.png


If you have an aversion to main roads, you have to grin a bear it for 2miles, then peel off to the north. This will take more like 45mins:
Screen shot 2013-12-13 at 15.21.03.png
Mick F. Cornwall

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 13 Dec 2013, 4:50pm

binsted wrote:Just a bit concerned about the unsurfaced, what is your definition or is this cycle paths?

OK answered it, it appears gravelled tracks or bridleways.


Yep. It prefers tarmac all other things being equal, but if there's a short gravel or good-quality compacted route that has significant advantages (shorter, quieter, less hilly), it'll use that. The unsurfaced stuff is shown differently on the map, so you can drag the route away from it if you like.

Mick F wrote:One Fairhurst to another! :D


And both of us exiled from the St Helens heartland. ;)

Mick F wrote:Just tried your routing from Gunnislake to Tavistock.
Sorry, but the route it comes up with is a bit daft.
Screen shot 2013-12-13 at 15.06.21.png
The route takes you up a very steep shortcut (locally known as the first shortcut.
Then it takes you up another very steep hill (locally known as the second shortcut)
Then, you cross the Bere Alston road and go along another shortcut (locally known as the first cutoff)

These roads are VERY busy and fast with all the traffic bombing along to cut off the longer route round. They are all rat-runs and are to be avoided by bicycles. It's bad enough being a pedestrian! :shock:

Farr better from Gunny to Tavy, is to stay on the main road and there's nothing to be gained at all by going via Mill Hill.


From previous postings I think you're more comfortable with cycling on A roads than I am, so I guess it's not too surprising - no two cyclists are made alike (even if they do have the same surname). I know you've recommended the A49 on the LEJOG board and (from experience) I'd rather chew my own arm off.

But traffic on minor roads is an interesting one. Any tool that plans a route for you (as opposed to the approach of letting you plot out your own route) will prioritise one sort of road over another, unless you've expressly asked it for the shortest route.

A car route-planner will generally prefer motorways and A-roads, a cycle route-planner the opposite. Now if these little roads you've pointed to are just as busy as the A-road, then yes, it would be better not doing that.

The question is where to get this data in a reasonably objective form. The DfT publishes traffic count data which I'd really like to use, though feeding it into the route-planner's internals won't be trivial. I wonder if it has those roads on...
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andymiller
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby andymiller » 13 Dec 2013, 7:13pm

Mick F wrote:The route takes you up a very steep shortcut (locally known as the first shortcut.
Then it takes you up another very steep hill (locally known as the second shortcut)
Then, you cross the Bere Alston road and go along another shortcut (locally known as the first cutoff)

These roads are VERY busy and fast with all the traffic bombing along to cut off the longer route round. They are all rat-runs and are to be avoided by bicycles. It's bad enough being a pedestrian! :shock:

Farr better from Gunny to Tavy, is to stay on the main road and there's nothing to be gained at all by going via Mill Hill.

I picked Gunny to Tavy because there's only one way to get between the two unless you want to go sightseeing, but whatever route you fancy you have to use the main road for the first two or three miles.

Yes, I know I'm being picky, but I've yet to see a better route planner than BikeHikeUk. You pick out the route where you want to go and it comes up with a simple solution.


Maybe I'm picky but I'm sceptical that any site using autorouting is going to know the difference between a shortcut and a rat run. And looking at the BikeHike options there doesn't seem to be an option that would take account of elevation data in autorouting. Whichever planning tool you chooses there's no substitute (yet) for a human brain looking at the results.

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Mick F
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Mick F » 14 Dec 2013, 6:59am

Yes, I admit I'm being picky!

The problem with the route I'm discussing, isn't really the rat runs. It's the steepness of the gradients and the unsuitability of the road for cycling both uphill and downhill.

The contour lines are plain to see, and if you had the OS chevrons on display, you'd see it. Also, it's common sense that the straight roads will be the old packhorse routes rather than the graceful and gentle turnpike route.
Screen shot 2013-12-14 at 06.55.07.png


BTW, I'm from Wigan. :D
Mick F. Cornwall

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CJ
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby CJ » 16 Dec 2013, 12:47pm

Mick F wrote:The problem with the route I'm discussing, isn't really the rat runs. It's the steepness of the gradients and the unsuitability of the road for cycling both uphill and downhill.

The contour lines are plain to see, and if you had the OS chevrons on display, you'd see it. Also, it's common sense that the straight roads will be the old packhorse routes rather than the graceful and gentle turnpike route.
Screen shot 2013-12-14 at 06.55.07.png

Another factor in considering whether to use a possibly quieter alternative to a section of main road (that one cannot entirely avoid), is what side of the road is it? If one can slip off to the left and almost as easily slip on again, as with the first short-cut, it may be worth doing. But if you have to turn right off the fast and busy main road to get into it, as with the second short-cut, and then make a right turn back onto that road, the stress and hazard of making those turns - especially when giong uphill - is likely to be much worse than simply staying on the main road for a mile or two.

Mick is right that we all have our own criteria which generate different best routes for each of us. I have extremely low bottom gears on my bikes, so very steep hills don't worry me, provided they don't add to total altitude gain. I'm as happy riding up 500m of 1 in 5 as 1km of 1 in 10. So I'd take the first short-cut but not the second - or not unless I arrived at that turn-off at a lucky moment with no traffic. And in the other direction I'd take neither. Because on a main road with that gradient I'd expect to get up to at least 30mph, probably 40, at which speed very little traffic would want to pass me anyway. Going back to Gunnislake I wouldn't even do the easy slip-off on the left to use the higher short-cut, because it wouldn't be safe to give the bike it's head down that much steeper gradient, so it would not be as much fun, would cause more wear and tear on rims and brakes; and then with visibility upon rejoining the main road apparently blocked by a house I'd probably have to slow right down, maybe even stop: wasting energy hand-over-fist!

But I must confess I don't know those roads at all, never been near them. How's my map-reading Mick?
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Mick F
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Mick F » 16 Dec 2013, 7:50pm

CJ wrote:But I must confess I don't know those roads at all, never been near them. How's my map-reading Mick?
I would say spot on.
Well done. :D

I'm obviously very familiar with the area, and sometimes see the "odd" cyclist climbing the first short cut, and I usually smile to myself. I'm sure if you have a low enough gear, hills aren't a problem - but a gentler and longer route can be just as quick.
TBH, although I've ridden up both those shortcuts in the past, I've never compared the times.

Sounds like an interesting trial. I know it takes me 25mins from home to Tavistock by the normal (longer) route. I may have a go at using the first short cut tomorrow to see if it makes much difference as I'll be cycling that way.

Also, coming down, even in a car, isn't worth the effort on the brakes IMHO. Plus, one thing I never mentioned, is that the first short cut is a One Way - upwards.

First short cut:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=gunnis ... 06,,0,-5.2

Second short cut:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=gunnis ... 62,,0,1.87
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Mick F
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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Mick F » 17 Dec 2013, 1:25pm

Mick F wrote:Sounds like an interesting trial. I know it takes me 25mins from home to Tavistock by the normal (longer) route. I may have a go at using the first short cut tomorrow to see if it makes much difference as I'll be cycling that way.
I rode up the first short cut this morning.

I've extracted the track from my GPS and found that the short cut took me 3mins 51sec for the 0.36miles.
Compared to going round on the more gentle main road, it takes me 4mins 14sec for 0.55miles.

Considering I come off the Devon end of the bridge at circa 25mph, I can keep up a good speed around the bend on the main road and slowly come down the gears as I get to a steady climb at circa 7.5mph in 3rd or 4th gear.

Same speed off the bridge, then straight up the hill, I slowed down quite suddenly and within 50yds I had slowed to 4mph and in bottom gear to grind me all the way up. When I made it out onto the main road (and less gradient), I had to steadily up the speed and get into 3rd gear for the rest of the journey up and up and up.

I saved a whole 23secs on the trip today. :wink:
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Bike-Rich » 18 Dec 2013, 5:04pm

Is 'Garmin' considered the best device to use for a bike-sat-nav?
I'm reading this thread and doing best to understand, am I right in saying once I have a device, i'm not tied into any subscription - I can use google maps freely for maps world-wide (providing card is big enough),

Thanks

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Re: Garmin, Mac, Route Planning, Tracks and Routes

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 18 Dec 2013, 5:34pm

No, you can't download Google Maps' vector data. You can download OpenStreetMap data in Garmin format from many sites, however.
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