North Birmingham CTC

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Psamathe
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby Psamathe » 20 Apr 2016, 3:44pm

AndyK wrote:
Si wrote:but the requirement for 3rd party insurance still involves a cost....if the leaders are indemnified (as they would be in a AG) do we really need riders to have 3rd party insurance...should that not be a personal decision?


Here's how I've had it explained to me in the past. For big claims, insurance companies like to claim off other insurance companies rather than individual people, because they know that other insurance companies have lots of money while individuals may not have.

  • Alice leads a ride. During the ride, one rider (Bob) veers sideways suddenly, causing an incident that results in hundreds of thousands of pounds being paid out to third parties by their own insurers.
  • The third parties' insurers go looking for someone to pay them back (because that's what insurers do).
  • Bob is the obvious target, but he doesn't have any third party insurance. As an individual he doesn't have anywhere near the amount of money they want, even if he sells all his worldly goods. Getting the money out of Bob will be expensive and long-winded.
  • So they ignore Bob and go for the first person in the chain of liability who does have insurance: the ride leader. They claim that as leader, Alice should have had better control over the group, should have chosen a different route, should have known Bob was an unsafe rider, whatever.
  • Eventually the whole thing gets sorted out between insurers.
  • In the short term, though, Alice gets put through a whole lot of stress as the third parties' insurers try to find ways to blame her. Trust me, that's an unpleasant experience even if you do have your own insurers behind you.
  • In the long term, the premiums for ride leader insurance go up. Even if Alice's insurers didn't pay up in the end, it will have cost them time and money having to handle the case, and insurers really resent having to work for their money. They will bump up the premium and may even start insisting that all ride participants must be insured.

So if you lead rides or you run a club, it's in your own interests for the participants to have their own third-party cover.

Another aspect to 3rd party insurance is the risk an injured party takes using "No win, No fee" solicitors to pursue a claim against an uninsured person. I discovered this when I was pursuing a case in court against an individual where insurance was not applicable (breach of contract damages). Solicitor was happy to do it on a No Win, No Fee basis but what happens then (once I read the small print) was that their charge rates increase dramatically and, once the case has been won, I am liable for the legal costs though the solicitors will pursue the defendant. But if they can't get the money out of the defendant (e.g. no money or assets) then I would still be liable. This can be relevant where legal costs become significant.

Maybe different companies offer different No Win, No Fee contracts, and it normally is not relevant as they would be pursuing an insurance company (who will have the money for legal costs if they lose).

Ian

PH
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby PH » 20 Apr 2016, 7:17pm

AndyK wrote:Here's how I've had it explained to me in the past. For big claims, insurance companies like to claim off other insurance companies rather than individual people, because they know that other insurance companies have lots of money while individuals may not have.
................................snip

The extent of a ride leaders liability was covered in detail on the Ride Leader Workshops run by CTC last year. The requirements to ensure you are not liable are pretty minimal (I think the handbook is available on the website) The reason they are so is the rarity of claims, it gets talked about all the time, but how many of us know of such a claim?
In AndyK's example, Alice has nothing to fear if she's followed the guidelines. Andy's example goes through what would happen if Bob wasn't insured, I think that's correct. What it doesn't do is look at what happens if Bob is, his insurers will want to explore if anyone else has liability as much as the original claimant would. If Alice (Her insurers) have any liability the only difference would be who was claiming it.
I wouldn't consider leading a ride for a club without being insured, doing so could result in the club being held responsible for my actions. I'm quite happy to take on the risk for a non club group, there's plenty of rides run through the Sky website where insurance isn't a requirement. I'm also happy to lead rides where the participants don't have individual insurance and I think some affiliated clubs who insist on it misunderstand their liability.

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Si
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby Si » 21 Apr 2016, 2:27pm

I think that I tend to see things in line with what PH says. Indeed I sometimes work for an organisation that is litigation-phobic yet they are perfectly happy to have rides and events with uninsured riders as long as the leaders are insured.

Mike Eades
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby Mike Eades » 21 Apr 2016, 8:07pm

hello Si

In response to your recent post.

The changes to Northern News were made shortly after I took up the post of treasurer so around 3 years ago. Unfortunately NN is no longer produced because we cannot get enough members to submit copy. We tried reducing the frequency of publication but this didn't help. The newsletter and noticeboard fulfill the role of notifying members of events etc and Facebook has taken over for the posting of photographs and comments. People seem to prefer this to producing the longer articles required for NN.

We haven't been able to carry out any detailed analysis of the fall in membership since members don't notify us they are leaving and we don't carry out any leaving interviews. However, the down turn appears to fall into two categories, natural wastage and the move to another club. We lost all of our Muslim colleagues, who used to be part of Pathfinders, I believe many of these now ride with the Boldmere Bullets and we lost a lot of our faster Saturday riders to Boldmere Bullets, The reasons appear to be that their rides suit the members better, earlier starts so that they can spend more time with families, and they have a more active and appealing social program.

I agree with you about the venue for the club house and I said in the second presentation that it should be in the centre of Sutton Coldfield, have a more warm and welcoming feel and provide modern facilities like wi-fi.

Promoting beginners rides and family rides does present the club with a challenge. Most beginners probably wouldn't want to join a club initially, but under current members group rules they can only ride with us 3 times before they are forced to join CTC. At £43 for an ordinary member and £70 for a family it's a large expense after only 3 rides. As an affiliated club this problem would be removed.

Based on my own experiences I believe that Family riders and beginners prefer to be taught by / ride with their peers i.e. similar ages, outlook, etc and this is difficult for our club to achieve given the age demographic within the club. This to some extent comes back to the fall in membership as it is primarily the younger riders who have families who are moving to other clubs.

Given that you have declared yourself as a floating voter I don't want to appear as though I am a politician making promises to secure your vote which I won't then deliver, but as I said in my last post i am sure that after next weeks vote the committee would be happy to talk to you to discuss a possible way forward for beginners and families.

Psamathe
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby Psamathe » 21 Apr 2016, 8:27pm

Mike Eades wrote:...
Promoting beginners rides and family rides does present the club with a challenge. Most beginners probably wouldn't want to join a club initially, but under current members group rules they can only ride with us 3 times before they are forced to join CTC. At £43 for an ordinary member and £70 for a family it's a large expense after only 3 rides. As an affiliated club this problem would be removed.
...

I can see the membership costs (£43 or £70) being a major hindrance if the club is seeking wider ride participation. Probably not an issue if you want the dedicated hard core riders who come whatever the weather, most rides. But to encourage wide participation it is a lot. But at the same time I can see that for a membership based club 3 rides should be enough for somebody to decide if they like the rides/people/organisation/if it is for them and there is a good case that setting the liit higher would just allow people to ride without paying for membership rather that just as a try before you buy.

I suppose it comes down to what the club is looking for - fewer dedicated regulars who are committed cyclists (in which case £43 or £70 is not too much of a hindrance). But more wider involvement then £43 or £70 would be a major hindrance.

Ian

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robgul
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby robgul » 21 Apr 2016, 8:41pm

Psamathe wrote:
Mike Eades wrote:...
Promoting beginners rides and family rides does present the club with a challenge. Most beginners probably wouldn't want to join a club initially, but under current members group rules they can only ride with us 3 times before they are forced to join CTC. At £43 for an ordinary member and £70 for a family it's a large expense after only 3 rides. As an affiliated club this problem would be removed.
...

I can see the membership costs (£43 or £70) being a major hindrance if the club is seeking wider ride participation. Probably not an issue if you want the dedicated hard core riders who come whatever the weather, most rides. But to encourage wide participation it is a lot. But at the same time I can see that for a membership based club 3 rides should be enough for somebody to decide if they like the rides/people/organisation/if it is for them and there is a good case that setting the liit higher would just allow people to ride without paying for membership rather that just as a try before you buy.

I suppose it comes down to what the club is looking for - fewer dedicated regulars who are committed cyclists (in which case £43 or £70 is not too much of a hindrance). But more wider involvement then £43 or £70 would be a major hindrance.

Ian


The cost and perceived lack of value from CTC membership was probably about 75% or 80% of the reasoning that we moved to Affiliated status - we simply were not getting new riders stumping up that amount of money just to go out riding a bike. We've attracted lots of new riders since September 2015 - another 3 this week ... and we're having to think about the pubs we go to for lunch on Wednesdays given the growing group size.

Rob

PH
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby PH » 21 Apr 2016, 9:31pm

Psamathe wrote: Probably not an issue if you want the dedicated hard core riders who come whatever the weather, most rides.
Ian

The dedicated riders will find a club that suites them regardless, though if all you're looking for is a group to ride with then CTC is probably the dearest by a good margin, you're signing up to and contributing to the rest of the charities activities whether you want to or not.
But for member groups like the one I'm involved in to thrive, it's not about attracting enthusiasts it's about creating them. The three rides rule is a barrier, potential riders knowing that are less likely to even give the group a try and in many areas there are choices. Wherever your opinions come from I think you'll be hard pushed to find someone involved with running a member group who doesn't think there's a problem here. Disagreements exist in the way to deal with it, I'm in favour of waiting to see what happens over the next couple of years, but I don't think the current rules are sustainable.

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robgul
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby robgul » 21 Apr 2016, 10:20pm

PH wrote:
Psamathe wrote: Probably not an issue if you want the dedicated hard core riders who come whatever the weather, most rides.
Ian

The dedicated riders will find a club that suites them regardless, though if all you're looking for is a group to ride with then CTC is probably the dearest by a good margin, you're signing up to and contributing to the rest of the charities activities whether you want to or not.
But for member groups like the one I'm involved in to thrive, it's not about attracting enthusiasts it's about creating them. The three rides rule is a barrier, potential riders knowing that are less likely to even give the group a try and in many areas there are choices. Wherever your opinions come from I think you'll be hard pushed to find someone involved with running a member group who doesn't think there's a problem here. Disagreements exist in the way to deal with it, I'm in favour of waiting to see what happens over the next couple of years, but I don't think the current rules are sustainable.


That you say "it's not about attracting enthusiasts it's about creating them" is interesting ... looking through the list of newer members that HoECC has attracted it does appear that many of them were relatively casual (i.e. not enthusiasts) riders but have developed their interest by riding with a group.

Rob

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Si
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby Si » 22 Apr 2016, 9:48am

Yep, "creating" enthusiasts is the thing.

You could buy your self an expensive bike (at least £100), stump up £40 and go riding with the CTC/C.UK (who are all much fitter than you, ride much further than you can, and have "race" bikes and lycra). Or you could go up the road to the Wellbeing Centre and use a good quality bike for free, be tutored by trained instructors and ride with a group of people who look like you, have a similar skill and fitness to you, all for free. In terms of creating enthusiasts British Cycling is currently ahead of the CTC in North Birmingham! However, BC aren't catering for children or families.....the door is still open for the CTC. There will be a bit of a joint effort between another C.UK affiliate, BCC and Sustrans to cater for the family market in the summer hols. But it still leaves the traditional MG out of the loop.

And the thing is....there is a desire for family rides and activities. We did a promotion for another (adult only) event at the local swimming pool on a Sunday morning.....massive queue of families going swimming....general response was: sounds great and we'd love to do it but we want to bring the kids. Likewise, we recently did a Ditch the Stabilisers - was only meant to be one one hour session, ended up with three sessions and yet more potential punters asking when the next was. Kids and families still love riding bike!

alicat
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CTC North Birmingham lives on

Postby alicat » 30 Apr 2016, 4:15pm

A vote on the future of CTC North Birmingham was held this morning and the result was 69 - 41 in favour of staying as a CTC/Cycling UK member group.

For six months we have lived under the cloud of a review that claimed there were no benefits to staying as a member group, resulting in a high risk that the club would not survive to celebrate its centenary in three years' time.

Now we can make the reforms we need to make in a more inclusive way than was proposed.

Where's that bottle of champers?

123ttam
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby 123ttam » 30 Apr 2016, 5:24pm

North Birmingham CTC, have today Saturday 30th April 2016 , conducted our vote and the outcome is that we will remain a Members Group.

Much happier now.

M

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Si
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby Si » 30 Apr 2016, 6:15pm

Let us hope that the people on both sides of the debate can now come together to move things forward, and that everyone can remain friends with no bad feeling :D

TBH, I still don't know what would have been most beneficial....the change to an affiliated club clearly did have benefits over the status quo, but for me those benefits were not enough and what was proposed was a little too much of a halfway house. Anyway up, as I had to work this morning I didn't get to vote.

"Up the Northern"

PH
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby PH » 30 Apr 2016, 7:41pm

What Si says. Plus well done to all concerned for getting that many people to come and vote.

belgiangoth
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Re: North Birmingham CTC

Postby belgiangoth » 9 Sep 2016, 8:54pm

Ha, northerners staying under the yoke of the cup, while us southerns make a bid for freedom ... (Last time I rode with a my it was the heart of England...).
If I had a baby elephant I would let it sleep in the garage in place of the car. If I had either a garage or a car. (I miss sigs about baby elephants)


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