Advice Please on informal group riding

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HaroldBriercliffe
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Advice Please on informal group riding

Postby HaroldBriercliffe » 26 Sep 2017, 12:26pm

Does anyone know what the legal/insurance requirements might be for an informal, but advertised locally; weekly ride out for a group of retired people on any and all sorts of bicycles?
Nothing sportive, just a sociable, mid-weekly ride out from our Village Hall to a cake stop and back at a gentle pace along country roads.
Possibly a dozen or so.
Many thanks in anticipation.
" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
(Dogen)

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Si
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Re: Advice Please

Postby Si » 26 Sep 2017, 1:31pm

If it's just a group of friends or casual group going for a ride then there are no legal requirements (apart from the obvious of obeying highway code etc) or insurance requirements.

Indeed, even if it's a club ride there are no extra legal or insurance requirements.

However, just because you are not required to have insurance it doesn't mean that you shouldn't consider it. If something goes wrong and you are identified as a leader/organiser then there may be some claim made against you.

Easy ways around this, should you decide it is something that you want to mitigate against, would be to either set up as a CUK Affiliate Club which would cost around £75 per year and cover the leaders for claims against them, or set the ride up on www.letsride.co.uk and make people sign up via that website, thus indemnifying the leaders. Now, you might be wondering why CUK think that they need actual insurance for the leaders whereas BC are happy with people just signing disclaimers....you wouldn't be the only one.

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Re: Advice Please

Postby PH » 26 Sep 2017, 1:39pm

Si wrote:or set the ride up on http://www.letsride.co.uk and make people sign up via that website, thus indemnifying the leaders.

Could you give me the details of that Si, the only thing I can find on the website is
HSBC UK Ride Social rides are organised by members of the HSBC UK Ride Social online community, and are not organised, approved, or insured by British Cycling. Riders take part at their own risk.

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meic
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Re: Advice Please

Postby meic » 26 Sep 2017, 1:41pm

Actually you can "just do it".
Nobody is stopping you and no legal requirements.

What is happening is that we live in a selfish climate where people will exploit others and sue them when they get a chance. However it doesnt happen as much as the publicity suggests. We are also talking only about liability for organising the event, not for any individuals' liabilty for cycling accidents or putting their bike through a shop window.
In absolute terms you are facing a much greater risk from the cars driving past you, than of one of your mates suing you for leading them the wrong way up a motorway etc, or even one of their relatives suing you after your friend's death.

In order to be successful in suing you, you do have to have been negligent, but of course they dont have to be successful in suing you to cause you a lot of harm, they cause harm enough just through trying it.

You can get insurance through various means for not much money and some tedious bureaucracy.
Like getting affiliated to Cycling UK but then you will be subjected to restrictions and conditions, more bureaucracy. It does however leave you with peace and mind about having your liabilities paid for you.

Of more interest to me would be the side benefit that if all your members joined up through this or otherwise with a cycling organisation they would have third party insurance in case they cause damage to somebody else. Which could include each other.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: Advice Please

Postby PH » 26 Sep 2017, 1:53pm

If it was me - for a group of mates I wouldn't bother, we'd agree there wasn't a leader and take joint responsibility for organisation. If I was advertising and organising, I wouldn't be comfortable unless there was insurance in place for that.
If the BSC letsride website provides that, it's what I'd use, it's also an effective means of advertising even if you don't need the insurance. If that didn't cover your needs, the £75 for affiliation looks like decent value and wouldn't take much to re-coup with minimum subs or just a whip round at the coffee stop.

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Re: Advice Please

Postby PH » 26 Sep 2017, 1:58pm

meic wrote:You can get insurance through various means for not much money and some tedious bureaucracy.
Like getting affiliated to Cycling UK but then you will be subjected to restrictions and conditions, more bureaucracy. It does however leave you with peace and mind about having your liabilities paid for you.

I've run an affiliated club and don't recall any bureaucracy other than filling out a form to register and sending the money. Neither do I remember any restrictions, so those there were must have been the stuff the club would have done anyway. You are running rides for your club members, so you do need to get them to join, though any membership costs and benefits are nothing to do with Cycling UK.

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Re: Advice Please

Postby Si » 26 Sep 2017, 3:10pm

PH wrote:
meic wrote:You can get insurance through various means for not much money and some tedious bureaucracy.
Like getting affiliated to Cycling UK but then you will be subjected to restrictions and conditions, more bureaucracy. It does however leave you with peace and mind about having your liabilities paid for you.

I've run an affiliated club and don't recall any bureaucracy other than filling out a form to register and sending the money. Neither do I remember any restrictions, so those there were must have been the stuff the club would have done anyway. You are running rides for your club members, so you do need to get them to join, though any membership costs and benefits are nothing to do with Cycling UK.


IIRC all I have to do is send in a list of ride leaders once a year, send a cheque once a year and remember to pass the magazine on to other members. Oh and you are supposed to take a register on each ride...I make people do consent forms too but I need to do that anyway for a partner organisation so no idea if CUK requires it..although it's always a good idea so you have people's details should anything happen.

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Re: Advice Please

Postby Si » 26 Sep 2017, 3:15pm

PH wrote:
Si wrote:or set the ride up on http://www.letsride.co.uk and make people sign up via that website, thus indemnifying the leaders.

Could you give me the details of that Si, the only thing I can find on the website is
HSBC UK Ride Social rides are organised by members of the HSBC UK Ride Social online community, and are not organised, approved, or insured by British Cycling. Riders take part at their own risk.



You need to create a log in* by clicking on "join". then click on your pic (top right), click on "my home" on the menu that appears, then bottom right on your dashboard you will see a red bit with "Create a ride" on it.


* then you become a piece of BC data; your CUK side will react against your new BC side and just like anti-matter meeting matter you'll cancel yourself out.

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Re: Advice Please

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Sep 2017, 3:30pm

meic wrote: ... In order to be successful in suing you, you do have to have been negligent, but of course they dont have to be successful in suing you to cause you a lot of harm, they cause harm enough just through trying it. ...


In answer to the original query, there are no legal requirements but I think meic's comment here sums it up. Back in the days when Leeds Cycling Action Group used to organise National Bike Week in Leeds, there were quite a lot of pretty informal events, AFAIK, with no wrecks and nobody drownded while cycling, but one of the bigger events was at the historic grass cycle track in the Arena at Roundhay Park (municipally owned.)

A member of the public slipped and fell on one of the park footpaths. (It is a big park, BTW) They made some sort of personal injury claim to Leeds City Council and somebody there directed them to us. Bear in mind we were unincorporated and might have been in difficulty even just lobbing it back to the Council. Official National Bike Week events all come under one umbrella policy, and that was one umbrella we were pleased to shelter under.

AFAIK, apart from negligence, the biggy is a "duty of care." I'd worry that any suggestion that they would be led by experienced riders etc., might be enough. I can't speak with any confidence about this, but this is probably one of those occasions where - in the words of the old ad - you mightbe advised to "get the strength of the insurance companies round you." Daytime telly is full of ads from personal injury solicitors and "accident managers."

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HaroldBriercliffe
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Re: Advice Please

Postby HaroldBriercliffe » 26 Sep 2017, 4:45pm

Thanks all for the helpful replies.
Looks like CUK Affiliation is the way to go for peace of mind.
I'm sure the Village Hall recreation fund will spring for a one-off starter £75 towards a good cause. Running a football card or similar once a month should find the renewal.
Much obliged to all.
:D
" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
(Dogen)

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Re: Advice Please

Postby mjr » 27 Sep 2017, 12:35pm

Si wrote:
PH wrote:I've run an affiliated club and don't recall any bureaucracy other than filling out a form to register and sending the money. Neither do I remember any restrictions, so those there were must have been the stuff the club would have done anyway. You are running rides for your club members, so you do need to get them to join, though any membership costs and benefits are nothing to do with Cycling UK.


IIRC all I have to do is send in a list of ride leaders once a year, send a cheque once a year and remember to pass the magazine on to other members. Oh and you are supposed to take a register on each ride...I make people do consent forms too but I need to do that anyway for a partner organisation so no idea if CUK requires it..although it's always a good idea so you have people's details should anything happen.

Yes and there are some restrictions on CUK-non-members participating in rides - only so many per ride and so many rides per non-member.

I strongly suspect that many affiliated clubs aren't meeting the requirements to be covered by the insurance, including some which advertise their rides as having organiser insurance. It's all going to end in tears for someone at some point, possibly including CUK for not monitoring their insured affiliates, but cycling is basically safe so it may not happen for some time.

I feel it's very important not to behave as a leader or organiser if you're not. I try to give a short reminder when I'm the longest-serving member present and there are riders who haven't been on such a ride: I welcome everyone and say there is a navigator and a back-marker but the ride is not led in a BC/CUK sense - you are responsible for your own cycling, so please ride as you should when you're on your own, look for yourself at junctions even if someone else says it's clear (and I won't normally say clear because I get it wrong too often - look for yourself), signal turns and stops and if you want, signal potholes by pointing at them if it's safe to do so; we will be fairly slow pulling away from most junctions to help the group stay together; if you have to stop for a problem, ringing your bell continuously should make sure the backmarker is aware. I still get the hairy eyeball when I spend a minute on that sort of reminder, though.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Advice Please

Postby PH » 27 Sep 2017, 12:51pm

mjr wrote:Yes and there are some restrictions on CUK-non-members participating in rides - only so many per ride and so many rides per non-member.


I feel it's very important not to behave as a leader or organiser if you're not. I try to give a short reminder when I'm the longest-serving member present and there are riders who haven't been on such a ride: I welcome everyone and say there is a navigator and a back-marker but the ride is not led in a BC/CUK sense - you are responsible for your own cycling, so please ride as you should when you're on your own, look for yourself at junctions even if someone else says it's clear (and I won't normally say clear because I get it wrong too often - look for yourself), signal turns and stops and if you want, signal potholes by pointing at them if it's safe to do so; we will be fairly slow pulling away from most junctions to help the group stay together; if you have to stop for a problem, ringing your bell continuously should make sure the backmarker is aware. I still get the hairy eyeball when I spend a minute on that sort of reminder, though.

Now you have completely misunderstood the nature of affiliated clubs . There is no requirement for riders to be a member of anything other than the affiliated club.

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Re: Advice Please

Postby meic » 27 Sep 2017, 1:00pm

As an example
http://fridaynightridetothecoast.blogsp ... idays.html

The Fridays do insist that you have insurance through being a member of some cycling group but it doesnt have to be Cycling UK. I assume it is the Fridays who have introduced this rule, rather than Cycling UK as a condition of affiliation.
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Re: Advice Please

Postby PH » 27 Sep 2017, 1:11pm

meic wrote:As an example
http://fridaynightridetothecoast.blogsp ... idays.html

The Fridays do insist that you have insurance through being a member of some cycling group but it doesnt have to be Cycling UK. I assume it is the Fridays who have introduced this rule, rather than Cycling UK as a condition of affiliation.

Yes, affiliated clubs can make their own rules, on all sorts of matters. Including cost of membership and insurance.

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Re: Advice Please

Postby mjr » 27 Sep 2017, 1:57pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:Yes and there are some restrictions on CUK-non-members participating in rides - only so many per ride and so many rides per non-member.

Now you have completely misunderstood the nature of affiliated clubs . There is no requirement for riders to be a member of anything other than the affiliated club.

Quite possibly because it's horrendously unclear with affiliated clubs probably interpreting http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/ ... ance_0.pdf in different ways. In short, when CUK's then membership manager asked at the CN/CUK campaigners' conference in Leicester why KLWNBUG isn't double-affiliated, I mentioned this restriction as one reason and wasn't corrected, but maybe not even he understood what he was selling. That insurance guidance also witters on about officers (which we don't have as such) and vaguely mentions obeying all CUK guidance without defining it and I'm not sure exactly what it means. Maybe it's a way to weasel out of any claims.

Like I wrote earlier, this is going to end in tears sooner or later: the wide range of interpretations can't all be correct.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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