Cycling UK - helmet required for rides

Anything relating to the clubs associated with Cycling UK
thelawnet
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Cycling UK - helmet required for rides

Postby thelawnet » 27 Jun 2019, 8:27pm

Moderator note: this thread was split from another viewtopic.php?f=1&t=130911

simonhill wrote:What's wrong with Cycle UK?


well in my case I cancelled my membership because they said I had to wear a helmet on the ride I was on.

but I suspect it was a rhetorical question.

Grandad
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby Grandad » 28 Jun 2019, 1:20am

I cancelled my membership because they said I had to wear a helmet on the ride I was on

At what level was that rule applied? As the official stance is not to make helmets compulsory can local DAs, or whatever they are called now, impose a ban?

thelawnet
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby thelawnet » 28 Jun 2019, 9:13am

Grandad wrote:
I cancelled my membership because they said I had to wear a helmet on the ride I was on

At what level was that rule applied? As the official stance is not to make helmets compulsory can local DAs, or whatever they are called now, impose a ban?


As I understand it several of the 'fast' group leaders were so inclined and indeed shared such sentiments on the group mailing list that people who don't wear helmets were selfish (or something to that effect), also one told me explicitly not to come back next week without a helmet.

So I didn't.

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gaz
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby gaz » 28 Jun 2019, 9:55am

Grandad wrote:As the official stance is not to make helmets compulsory can local DAs, or whatever they are called now, impose a ban?

As mjr once pointed out, the Ride Leader Handbook allows a Ride Leader to mandate helmet use for their ride.

CyclingUKHelmets.png
Ride Leader Handbook 2016

A Ride Leader "notes" that Cycling UK policy is to advocate freedom of choice before exercising their prerogative that any rider without a helmet is so ill-equipped that they present a hazard to themselves and will not be allowed on their ride.

However implausable that interpretation may be, it remains a possible interpretation and is in line with thelawnet's experiences. I presume that Ride Leaders who use it have the support of their local committee, either because they share their view or they fear that challenging them will lead to the loss of ride leaders to the detriment of the group.
Hand wash only. Do not iron.

mattheus
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby mattheus » 28 Jun 2019, 10:53am

***EDIT***
This post doesn't make sense now that the topic has been split-out!

(and well done the Mods for doing so :) )
***EDIT***

thelawnet wrote:
Grandad wrote:
I cancelled my membership because they said I had to wear a helmet on the ride I was on

At what level was that rule applied? As the official stance is not to make helmets compulsory can local DAs, or whatever they are called now, impose a ban?


As I understand it several of the 'fast' group leaders were so inclined and indeed shared such sentiments on the group mailing list that people who don't wear helmets were selfish (or something to that effect), also one told me explicitly not to come back next week without a helmet.

So I didn't.

Were these the same people that either:
- provide the 3rd party cover, or
- provide this forum?

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby thelawnet » 28 Jun 2019, 12:53pm

mattheus wrote:Were these the same people that either:
- provide the 3rd party cover, or
- provide this forum?


Er, the same organisation, yes?

I have been a member of this forum for a few years. This year I went along to some rides, and they said 'if you want to come regularly you should join'. So I did and set up a direct debit to pay for the same.

Not long after that I came across the helmet issue so cancelled said direct debit as it was directly the rides that I was joining for, not the forum, insurance, or anything else.

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby thelawnet » 28 Jun 2019, 12:56pm

gaz wrote:A Ride Leader "notes" that Cycling UK policy is to advocate freedom of choice before exercising their prerogative that any rider without a helmet is so ill-equipped that they present a hazard to themselves and will not be allowed on their ride.

However implausable that interpretation may be, it remains a possible interpretation and is in line with thelawnet's experiences. I presume that Ride Leaders who use it have the support of their local committee, either because they share their view or they fear that challenging them will lead to the loss of ride leaders to the detriment of the group.


Indeed, I don't have an issue with them doing this, hence cancelling and not going back. To be clear I got the impression that the 'fast' group was slightly younger (though this is relative :lol: ) and perhaps a different mindset, I don't think there was necessarily an issue with other groups who are perhaps not in such a hurry.

mattheus
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby mattheus » 28 Jun 2019, 12:57pm

thelawnet wrote:
mattheus wrote:Were these the same people that either:
- provide the 3rd party cover, or
- provide this forum?


Er, the same organisation, yes?

I have been a member of this forum for a few years. This year I went along to some rides, and they said 'if you want to come regularly you should join'. So I did and set up a direct debit to pay for the same.

Not long after that I came across the helmet issue so cancelled said direct debit as it was directly the rides that I was joining for, not the forum, insurance, or anything else.

er, so "no" then.

And if you weren't joining for the insurance, why join an insurance discussion?

PH
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby PH » 28 Jun 2019, 1:04pm

gaz wrote:A Ride Leader "notes" that Cycling UK policy is to advocate freedom of choice before exercising their prerogative that any rider without a helmet is so ill-equipped that they present a hazard to themselves and will not be allowed on their ride.

However implausable that interpretation may be, it remains a possible interpretation and is in line with thelawnet's experiences. I presume that Ride Leaders who use it have the support of their local committee, either because they share their view or they fear that challenging them will lead to the loss of ride leaders to the detriment of the group.

I think that's a perverse interpretation,
"note point above on helmets"
and that is
"It is not up to Ride leaders to promote or otherwise the pros and cons of these."
How can there be any ambiguity in "It is not up to Ride leaders"?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Cycling UK - helmet required for rides

Postby Cunobelin » 28 Jun 2019, 1:57pm

Remember an organised event at Goodwood

You have to cross the race track, and cannot push bike across without one either

So walked across, borrowed helmet, walked back across and then balanced too small helmet oh head while I pushed the bike across

Helmet required for only one if the three times I walked across the track, and the time I did it was too small, not done up, but still wssential

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Cunobelin
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Re: Cycling UK - helmet required for rides

Postby Cunobelin » 28 Jun 2019, 2:09pm

The other classic is UK Cycling events

For many years they used to exclude EN 1078 (I.e “. Any helmets sold in the Uk) demanding Snell or ANZI 90/4

After many years of querying this they have now included EN1078

5. You must wear a safety-approved cycling helmet complying with latest EN1078, ANSI Z90/4 or SNELL standards during your participation in the event. Any rider not wearing a helmet will not be covered by the event insurance and will be disqualified from the event and could be liable for damages if involved in an accident on that basis. You must accept this as a condition of entry.


However the small issue is that ANSI has not existed for some 15 years... so they are now allowing ancient helmets passing a non-existent standard


This is an illustration of how I’ll-informed, and ignorant the people making the decisio to enforce helmet use actually are

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gaz
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby gaz » 28 Jun 2019, 2:27pm

PH wrote:I think that's a perverse interpretation,

I agree.
PH wrote:"note point above on helmets"
and that is
"It is not up to Ride leaders to promote or otherwise the pros and cons of these."
How can there be any ambiguity in "It is not up to Ride leaders"?

I don't take that to be the point above on helmets, rather the first point about Cycling UK advocating personal choice.

Non-promotion of the pros/cons of helmet wearing is easily accomodated when a Ride Leader has decided to mandate helmet use, "Wear a helmet, or you're not coming on my ride. I'm not going to discuss whether or not they work. No helmet, no ride".
Hand wash only. Do not iron.

PH
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby PH » 28 Jun 2019, 2:35pm

gaz wrote:
PH wrote:I think that's a perverse interpretation,

I agree.
PH wrote:"note point above on helmets"
and that is
"It is not up to Ride leaders to promote or otherwise the pros and cons of these."
How can there be any ambiguity in "It is not up to Ride leaders"?

I don't take that to be the point above on helmets, rather the first point about Cycling UK advocating personal choice.

Non-promotion of the pros/cons of helmet wearing is easily accomodated when a Ride Leader has decided to mandate helmet use, "Wear a helmet, or you're not coming on my ride. I'm not going to discuss whether or not they work. No helmet, no ride".

I can't see how that wouldn't be against CUK policy that all members are entitled to participate in all MG rides. The only real life example I've seen is from this forum, didn't National Office step in and tell them they couldn't do that?

thelawnet
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Re: Laka Club third party insurance

Postby thelawnet » 28 Jun 2019, 4:21pm

mattheus wrote:
thelawnet wrote:
mattheus wrote:Were these the same people that either:
- provide the 3rd party cover, or
- provide this forum?


Er, the same organisation, yes?

I have been a member of this forum for a few years. This year I went along to some rides, and they said 'if you want to come regularly you should join'. So I did and set up a direct debit to pay for the same.

Not long after that I came across the helmet issue so cancelled said direct debit as it was directly the rides that I was joining for, not the forum, insurance, or anything else.

er, so "no" then.

And if you weren't joining for the insurance, why join an insurance discussion?


it was a response to the rather curt implication that forum users were freeloading.

which had nothing to do with insurance .

If you're not a member then you're using our forum for free.

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gaz
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Re: Cycling UK - helmet required for rides

Postby gaz » 28 Jun 2019, 6:22pm

PH wrote:The only real life example I've seen is from this forum, didn't National Office step in and tell them they couldn't do that?

That was meic's example. A Local Member Group passing a motion at their AGM mandating helmets on all rides. National Office did come back to tell them that wasn't on.

thelawnet's example is a different LMG. I don't know whether they are actually claiming the handbook allows it or are simply choosing to ignore/being ignorant of Cycling UK policy. mjr first cited possible abuse of the wording in the handbook, I don't know whether he has a real world example to go with it or not.

Of course meic's scenario is slightly different as it was trying to create a LMG policy at odds with National policy, something that isn't possible under the LMG handbook.
Hand wash only. Do not iron.