Group rides and nCOVID-19

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mjr
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Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby mjr » 13 Mar 2020, 2:00pm

https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/coronavi ... volunteers

CUK advice, updated today. I think KLWNBUG will also follow it, rather than the sports bodies.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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LinusR
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Re: Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby LinusR » 13 Mar 2020, 6:47pm

mjr wrote:https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/coronavirus-advice-cycling-uk-groups-and-volunteers

CUK advice, updated today. I think KLWNBUG will also follow it, rather than the sports bodies.


Glad you mentioned this. Sensible advice. But did you get the volunteer newsletter? I ask because it also contained an FAQ with this advice for CUK groups.

[Cycling UK is] Encouraging groups to provide antibacterial gels and wipes during the activity and will be covering expenses for this.


Source: https://aaf1a18515da0e792f78-c27fdabe952dfc357fe25ebf5c8897ee.ssl.cf5.rackcdn.com/1689/FAQs+Covid-19+Resource+for+Groups+and+Volunteers.pdf?v=1584117686000

I think this is an unreasonable request of groups and ride leaders. While I recognise that CUK will cover the cost this puts a burden on the club and ride leaders for group rides. It is also unnecessary. Individuals should be taking responsibility for their own personal hygiene and respecting others. Ride leaders should not be expected to be vendors of soap and gel.

Psamathe
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Re: Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby Psamathe » 13 Mar 2020, 6:49pm

LinusR wrote:
mjr wrote:https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/coronavirus-advice-cycling-uk-groups-and-volunteers

CUK advice, updated today. I think KLWNBUG will also follow it, rather than the sports bodies.


Glad you mentioned this. Sensible advice. But did you get the volunteer newsletter? I ask because it also contained an FAQ with this advice for CUK groups.

[Cycling UK is] Encouraging groups to provide antibacterial gels and wipes during the activity and will be covering expenses for this.


Source: https://aaf1a18515da0e792f78-c27fdabe952dfc357fe25ebf5c8897ee.ssl.cf5.rackcdn.com/1689/FAQs+Covid-19+Resource+for+Groups+and+Volunteers.pdf?v=1584117686000

I think this is an unreasonable request of groups and ride leaders. While I recognise that CUK will cover the cost this puts a burden on the club and ride leaders for group rides. It is also unnecessary. Individuals should be taking responsibility for their own personal hygiene and respecting others. Ride leaders should not be expected to be vendors of soap and gel.

Without appreciating how clubs are organised, where might these clubs get hold of antibacterial gels and wipes? Most shops probably sold out several days ago.

Ian

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mjr
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Re: Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby mjr » 13 Mar 2020, 8:51pm

Psamathe wrote:
LinusR wrote:I think this is an unreasonable request of groups and ride leaders. While I recognise that CUK will cover the cost this puts a burden on the club and ride leaders for group rides. It is also unnecessary. Individuals should be taking responsibility for their own personal hygiene and respecting others. Ride leaders should not be expected to be vendors of soap and gel.

Without appreciating how clubs are organised, where might these clubs get hold of antibacterial gels and wipes? Most shops probably sold out several days ago.

In ordinary times and usage, it wouldn't be too bad. I keep some wipes in my first aid kits. I have them at home anyway for medical reasons so buying twelve instead of ten isn't hard.

But I agree that now it's likely to be difficult to get enough for a group without spending serious time visiting a few shops, as many have imposed limits on how many you can buy. It's out of touch to tell volunteers to go buy them.

I don't get Velocheer. CUK doesn't really honour the cooperation agreement with CycleNation any more and seems to have dropped me off mailings after klwnbugsters refused to affiliate.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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CyclingUK advise against group rides

Postby TrevA » 17 Mar 2020, 12:44pm

A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com

atlas_shrugged
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Re: CyclingUK advise against group rides

Postby atlas_shrugged » 17 Mar 2020, 12:59pm

This advice is poorly worded. They give no medical reference or reasons as to why a group ride should be riskier than cycling solo.

Agreed there should be no meetup in a café, or shaking hands, or group hugs etc etc. Maybe there should be advice on a safe distance from the cyclist in front. But they provide no medical evidence as to why following a cyclist in front is likely to result in infection. On the other hand this virus could be highly airborne but no evidence is presented.

IMHO CyclingUK should be putting out press releases advising avoiding public transport because medical evidence and papers exist to suggest this activity is more risky (by 5 or 6 times!):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... ice-tubes/

https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/ ... 2334-11-16

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Re: CyclingUK advise against group rides

Postby Psamathe » 17 Mar 2020, 1:08pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:This advice is poorly worded. They give no medical reference or reasons as to why a group ride should be riskier than cycling solo.

Agreed there should be no meetup in a café, or shaking hands, or group hugs etc etc. Maybe there should be advice on a safe distance from the cyclist in front. But they provide no medical evidence as to why following a cyclist in front is likely to result in infection. On the other hand this virus could be highly airborne but no evidence is presented.

Government guidance I've seen is staying 2m distant - although not specified the inference is that that is intended for indoor context (e.g. visiting elderly family stay 2m distant). I'd assume that "downwind" is a very different situation in that you are cycling into whatever the cyclist in front has made airborne.

I'm sure there are ways things could be done to lower risk but I've never done group rides and I think most organisations are leaping to follow Government guidance and maybe intending to provide more nuanced guidance after time for further investigations/enquiries.

e.g. On TV last night Norwich Theatre announced it was abandoning that night's performance (only hours after Gov. changed it's guidance) and the mostly admitted it was a knee-jerk reaction and that they'd be meeting next day once they had investigated guidance, etc. only then announcing longer term actions.

And just after I typed the last full-stop above I got an e-mail from the Theatre clarifying what they are now doing. So maybe CUK will investigate further and may be able to relax things if so advised.

Ian

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Re: CyclingUK advise against group rides

Postby PH » 17 Mar 2020, 1:38pm

Pretty inevitable following yesterday’s government advice. I note BC are also cancelling all rides including Ride Social.

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Re: Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby mjr » 17 Mar 2020, 4:40pm

Now changed to stop group rides.
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Re: CyclingUK advise against group rides

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 17 Mar 2020, 7:00pm

PH wrote:Pretty inevitable following yesterday’s government advice. I note BC are also cancelling all rides including Ride Social.

Yep. My next 3 rides are all bolloxed, BC took them down, the consensus of opinion was that most people were still happy to do the rides, but BC made our minds up for us.

gxaustin
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Re: Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby gxaustin » 17 Mar 2020, 7:08pm

This is CUK detailed advice. It doesn't seem to preclude group rides - does it? Or cafe stops?

"There is no reason for you to stop cycling at present but make sure to do so at a safe distance from others. Visits to cafes and pubs should be avoided to limit exposure to infection. You should carry tissues to use when cycling, disposing of them safely in a bin as soon as possible. If you do visit a food outlet, you must wash your hands before and after visiting, and again on returning home.

It’s also advisable to wash your cycling gloves, too. Remember to avoid touching your face if your hands are not clean."

I went out today and the pub was almost deserted - so the risk of infection can't have been that great compared to a bus, say, or the shops.

Does anyone know if there is an insurance problem for Ride leaders from putting on rides?

Graham Austin

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LinusR
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Re: Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby LinusR » 17 Mar 2020, 8:32pm

gxaustin wrote:This is CUK detailed advice. It doesn't seem to preclude group rides - does it? Or cafe stops?

Graham Austin


The statement from CTC/Cycling UK is advice to member and affiliate groups. Groups rides are not being banned. This is following government/NHS guidelines which advise people to keep a "social distance" -- just like people are being advised not to use public transport and go to pubs and restaurants. Mass events cannot go ahead because medical staff cannot attend them because they are needed in hospitals.

The situation is not like Italy or Spain where there is a lockdown. But this could change.

Member clubs are advised to cancel all group activities. My CTC had a brief discussion about this and we decided to cancel all our planned group rides until further notice. We are in central London and we usually meet at station and get the train out of the city and ride in the home counties. That is obviously not a good idea.

But some of us are likely to organise rides privately where maybe four of us meet and ride for a few hours and stop for a picnic somewhere. We will keep apart from one another and take other precautions. Riding solo but together. We won't be having a cafe stop and we won't be train assisted. But we are looking to find a workable solution to continue cycling. There's no ride leader but individuals are still covered by our CTC third party insurance. It's not that different from four friends going for a walk in the countryside.
Last edited by LinusR on 17 Mar 2020, 8:44pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Group rides and nCOVID-19

Postby LinusR » 17 Mar 2020, 8:43pm

gxaustin wrote:
Does anyone know if there is an insurance problem for Ride leaders from putting on rides?



I'm not a lawyer. Member and affiliate clubs and their ride leaders are insured against claims by individual members on the ride if there is an incident. The secretary of your member club would have to ask CUK about this. But as they are already advising clubs not organise group rides I would have thought they are unlikely to say "yes, it's OK".

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Re: CyclingUK advise against group rides

Postby LinusR » 17 Mar 2020, 9:26pm

Psamathe wrote:So maybe CUK will investigate further and may be able to relax things if so advised.


No, that's very unlikely. As a country we have moved from a "mitigation" to a "suppression" strategy.

Two fundamental strategies are possible: (a) mitigation, which focuses on slowing but not necessarily stopping epidemic spread – reducing peak healthcare demand while protecting those most at risk of severe disease from infection, and (b) suppression, which aims to reverse epidemic growth, reducing case numbers to low levels and maintaining that situation indefinitely.


And

The major challenge of suppression is that this type of intensive intervention package – or something equivalently effective at reducing transmission – will need to be maintained until a vaccine becomes available (potentially 18 months or more) – given that we predict that transmission will quickly rebound if interventions are relaxed.


But

intermittent social distancing – triggered by trends in disease surveillance – may allow interventions to be relaxed temporarily in relative short time windows, but measures will need to be reintroduced if or when case numbers rebound.


In other words there likely to be mandatory measures brought in - as in Italy and Spain - to control the spread but these may be reduced after a while but then re-introduced.

there is no easy policy decision to be made. Suppression, while successful to date in China and South
Korea, carries with it enormous social and economic costs which may themselves have significant
impact on health and well-being in the short and longer-term. Mitigation will never be able to
completely protect those at risk from severe disease or death and the resulting mortality may
therefore still be high.


The above is from the Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/news--wuhan-coronavirus/

This was reported in this news article and elsewhere https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-research-f/factbox-the-projection-that-changed-britains-coronavirus-policy-idUSKBN21415L

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Re: CyclingUK advise against group rides

Postby thatsnotmyname » 18 Mar 2020, 10:09am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
PH wrote:Pretty inevitable following yesterday’s government advice. I note BC are also cancelling all rides including Ride Social.

Yep. My next 3 rides are all bolloxed, BC took them down, the consensus of opinion was that most people were still happy to do the rides, but BC made our minds up for us.


BC has suspended all sanctioned event activity across the calendar until the end of April. There's always a small number of people would have been happy to continue regardless - but it's not about them.