Forum for LGBT Members

Anything relating to the clubs associated with Cycling UK
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Postby meic » 20 Oct 2008, 11:40am

Your second post is fine, for those who are in the majority.

It is a bit like saying "I dont have anything against Welsh people, some of my friends are Welsh etc etc, but they should speak English when we are in their pubs."
Yma o Hyd

ianr1950
Posts: 1336
Joined: 16 Apr 2007, 9:23am

Postby ianr1950 » 20 Oct 2008, 11:43am

mhara wrote:
ianr1950 wrote:
Jimmy The Hand wrote:
ianr1950 wrote:I just don't see how anyones sexual orientation can come out in any conversation whilst out on a club run.
I have never engaged in any chatter with anyone else about this in over 40 odd years of cycling.

Probably because people were scared of being arrested! It's only in the last few years that we've been able to be open about our sexuality and not run the risk of being imprisoned.

I recently had a conversaton with some of our DA members centred around having to call out the Police because of people banging on our window and door shouting homophobic abuse. I have also had a conversation with other DA members about where my partner and I spent the week after our Civil Ceremony - as we cycled past the house on a club run.

However you are correct it is something that probably wouldn't come up on a club run, unless of course one of your club members is one of us


But why would one of you as you put it have to bring the subject up if nobody else does, I can't see the reason why it even needs to be brought up. If the group have been riding together for a long time and nothing offensive has ever been said I don't see the reason for it to be mentioned.


I was 25 before medical experts decided lesbians should not be put in mental institutions.
It took years of campaining and lobbying and Pride Marches to get to be seen as normal human beings by most people.

Then Thatcher's vile Section 28 tried to shove us back into the closet and slam the door. Called our Families 'pretend families'.

I know that many posters on this Forum enjoy criticisng the Government, but under Labour we have finally achieved the legal rights we need to protect us as we try to lead ordinary everyday lives just being ourselves.

Listen to workhard's excellent explanation of how we just want to be able to chat on bike rides (and everywhere) as ordinarily as you do all the time. Do you really mean what you're saying?


Yes I do mean what I am saying.
I have never had the need to enquire about anyones sexuality whilst out on my bike or otherwise.
I don't tell anyone what my sexual preference is, it is my choice and nobody else's business.
If you feel the need to tell everyone about your sexuality then it is up to you but I also feel that if you do and expect to be treated different to anyone else then you do yourself an injustice.

kwackers
Posts: 15460
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Postby kwackers » 20 Oct 2008, 11:47am

meic wrote:"Wow! You really have a chip on your shoulder don't you? "

:lol: by posting this you prove her point.


Which point?

Her apparent belief that thread derailling is a predominantly white male activity? (Despite what I see as evidence to the contrary). Or the fact that she simply seems to have taken offence to me personally?
Perhaps there's another I'm unaware of?

I'm really struggling to see what's going on here. Sadly as a white 'straight' guy I appear to have been pigeon holed as some sort of homo-phobe whose views aren't worth a carrot.
This is despite not actually giving a t*** as to the sexual orientation or fetish or whatever of people I meet. I SIMPLY DO NOT GIVE A T***.
I can't say it any louder than that.

I've yet to meet anyone and think "I wonder if they're gay". I've never raised an eyebrow when someone introduces a same sex partner - it doesn't even cross my mind that it's in anyway strange. It happens all the time around me and is normal.

Is it just that I don't think segregation is a good idea? Is that a homophobic view?

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Postby meic » 20 Oct 2008, 12:08pm

I dont think segregation is a good idea either. Its the way you say it that makes the difference.
Yma o Hyd

kwackers
Posts: 15460
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Postby kwackers » 20 Oct 2008, 12:17pm

meic wrote:I dont think segregation is a good idea either. Its the way you say it that makes the difference.


Then I'm afraid I need a pointer, because I've not got a clue where/what I've said.

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Postby meic » 20 Oct 2008, 12:20pm

Also Kwackers I didnt see anything in her answers that implies she had taken offence at you personally (I doubt that will remain so if she posts again). It was the perceived debating tactic coming under fire.

Not "going off thread" so much as ignoring/belitling other arguments because they are not important to the majority view.

I cant help but laugh when you ask a Lesbian what she wants from straight white men :lol: . Sorry forgive me for I have sinned.
Yma o Hyd

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Postby meic » 20 Oct 2008, 12:22pm

Im sorry Kwackers, that is beyond me. You'll have to ask Mhara herself.
Yma o Hyd

kwackers
Posts: 15460
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Postby kwackers » 20 Oct 2008, 12:23pm

meic wrote:Your second post is fine, for those who are in the majority.

It is a bit like saying "I dont have anything against Welsh people, some of my friends are Welsh etc etc, but they should speak English when we are in their pubs."


I've only just realised this is aimed at me.

So what are you saying?

Are you claiming that I'm saying (or infering)

"I don't have anything against gay people, some of my friends are gay people but they should be straight when with us"

Seriously???

I've re-read my 'second post' and fail to see how you manage to extract that statement from it.

Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting your analogy...

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Postby meic » 20 Oct 2008, 12:34pm

No I am not saying that you are saying they must be straight. I am not saying anything about your views as I only see a small window on a computer screen.
I am not upset at you either :)

The red indians spoke of the people who intergrated with predominantly white society as apples. Red on the outside, white on the inside.
The act of total intergration may mean betraying the real you.

I come on this welcoming forum but I must do so in English. Many of my friends would not enter this forum because it is in English. Now the forum has done no wrong but it is not inclusive. It is not activly anti-Welsh it just isnt accomodating people who wish to speak their own language.
Yma o Hyd

mhara

Postby mhara » 20 Oct 2008, 1:22pm

Uh Oh!

Kwackers can I say first of all that I hope you'll agree we have more in common than we have differences?

Like you I beleive in inclusion, integration and that human society should start from the point of view that we're all human beings and people get along better when they get along.

To me, society's prevailing 'shape' is massively straight and white and male centred. saying this isn't, I hope, a sign of a chip on my shoulder it's how I try to explain that the way that society runs quite often makes me feel excluded.

The normality that you rightly would like everyone to fit into, at this time in our society's development still excludes important parts of my life.

I feel I'm in a lose/lose situation.
I am as 'out' and open as is possible for some-one who never goes round Being A Lesbian. My view is that if you are something you don't need to go around being it.

But life conspires against me.
For instance - every straight person I meet always assumes I'm straight.
e.g.
- me to Friendly Receptionist who's invited me to go on into the building
"I just need to wait for my partner who's parking the car."
Friendly Receptionist
"That's OK, go on through, I'll tell him the way when he gets in."

What's my next move?

Of course, almost every person is like you and goes on being polite and pleasant when the initial misconception comes to light.
But even so there is still that tiny "Oh"-readjustment moment in which my sexuality intrudes into what was an ordinary daily interaction.

It is not my 'fault' that it intrudes, but I'm very aware that lesbians and gay men get accused of 'flaunting' their sexuality. Actually, we're just being ourselves.

Another example -
I noted very early on in this thread that Eitheilyia said she didn't mind if lesbians were on a ride with her, so long as one of them didn't come on to her.

"As if" - was my first thought.
"Like straight men don't come on to lesbians" - was my second thought.

But I didn't post back on either of these thoughts because her post suggested to me that she hasn't had the chance to make any lesbian friends, which isn't her fault or our fault. It's an example of why it will take a while yet for straight and gay people to shake down together into a society where we all fit.

I'm sorry this post is going on so long.
I don't want to fall out with you kwackers.

My feeling is that, at the moment, our known presence still causes a bit of nervousness amongst straight people, even though everyone's goodwill and acceptance is to the fore.

I don't want to aggrevate any nervousness by being 100% me.
So I just enjoy everyone's company and am 95% me.
But it it can be very nice to have places where I can be 100% me in the company of gay and straight people who feel fully comfortable together.

I'm not sure this Forum is ready for a special thread or section.
Not because straight people understandably think everyone should be able to feel included and not need any separateness, but because I think not enough lesbian and gay posters would yet feel able to post whatever they want.

I do think Barry did something valuable in starting this discussion.

ianr1950
Posts: 1336
Joined: 16 Apr 2007, 9:23am

Postby ianr1950 » 20 Oct 2008, 2:00pm

meic wrote:No I am not saying that you are saying they must be straight. I am not saying anything about your views as I only see a small window on a computer screen.
I am not upset at you either :)

The red indians spoke of the people who intergrated with predominantly white society as apples. Red on the outside, white on the inside.
The act of total intergration may mean betraying the real you.

I come on this welcoming forum but I must do so in English. Many of my friends would not enter this forum because it is in English. Now the forum has done no wrong but it is not inclusive. It is not activly anti-Welsh it just isnt accomodating people who wish to speak their own language.


Why don't you start a forum for welsh speakers then :?:

kwackers
Posts: 15460
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Postby kwackers » 20 Oct 2008, 2:10pm

mhara wrote:<snip>


Thank you for your straight and honest post mhara.

I think you've given me far more thought as to why it may be necessary for a seperate forum than all the other posts put together.

I still think it would be a shame if it were necessary though...

The whole language thing has (I embarrassingly admit) passed me by. It's so obvious and yet I never saw it...
I'm afraid I can't offer a solution to it, although I'm a big fan of the intent of a statement rather than the statement itself.
(In my case I think I'd take such a foopar as a chance to break the ice rather than sit uncomfortably with it.)

mr_hippo

Postby mr_hippo » 20 Oct 2008, 2:17pm

Kwackers said "You can't be accepted as normal if you insist on special provision." Some people will not like you - learn to live with it! Some will snigger - learn to live with it. Some will hate you - learn to live with it.
mhara wrote:To me, society's prevailing 'shape' is massively straight and white and male centred. saying this isn't, I hope, a sign of a chip on my shoulder it's how I try to explain that the way that society runs quite often makes me feel excluded.

Well, it male be male dominated where I am and straight but white - NO! I am in a minority here, it may be months before I see a white man - does it bother me - NO! Why should it? Some expats here object to being called 'Farang' (Foreigner), well what are they? People here call me a tall, old, fat farang, what are they supposed to call me - 'A young, thin, average sized Thai'?
mhara wrote:But life conspires against me.
For instance - every straight person I meet always assumes I'm straight.
e.g.
- me to Friendly Receptionist who's invited me to go on into the building
"I just need to wait for my partner who's parking the car."
Friendly Receptionist
"That's OK, go on through, I'll tell him the way when he gets in."
What's my next move?

Oh so it is now a conspiracy? What's your next move? Open your mouth and say 'No, thanks, I'll wait here'
mhara wrote:But even so there is still that tiny "Oh"-readjustment moment in which my sexuality intrudes into what was an ordinary daily interaction.
Don't you think that this sharp intake of breath 'Oh' reaction happens to most of us at sometimes or do you think it is reserved just for you?
No-one has yet answered my question 'What do you want to discuss on a general, cycling specific forum that is gay related?'

kwackers
Posts: 15460
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Postby kwackers » 20 Oct 2008, 2:38pm

meic wrote:I cant help but laugh when you ask a Lesbian what she wants from straight white men :lol: . Sorry forgive me for I have sinned.


Yes I can see how that amuses... :wink:

Straight women like to hang with gay guys - presumably because us straight guys are 'sexual predators' - although if you could look around and see what I can currently see the word predator is most definitely amusing (and only true if you're a meat pie).

Nobody likes hanging round with us straight guys. :cry: Which is a shame because one of the reasons I got on with my two female friends is because they liked engineering, they knew how to use a lathe, a miller and weren't scared of big machines. (And we could have some VERY interesting discussions about hot 'chicks').

I've spent years looking for some such straight female but too no avail. :(

Jimmy The Hand
Posts: 116
Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 11:26am

Postby Jimmy The Hand » 20 Oct 2008, 2:47pm

ianr1950 wrote:Why do you assume that any new member gets asked what their sexuality is.

I don't assume that at all, in fact I would quite mad if I was asked! However as I said before
Jimmy The Hand wrote:Maybe he's asked if his wife cycles and the reply would be "I'm not married but my partner 'Joe' does" or he could be introducing himself and his partner to the group "I'm Barry and this is my partner 'Joe'"

ianr1950 wrote:In my experience it has never come up in any conversation,

That may mean either you have never had a LGBT member ride with your group or they have had so many knock backs they decide to supress who they are.
ianr1950 wrote:new members do noy get the third degree in qny shape or form.

Didn't you see the smiley after of third degree? it was said tongue in cheek :roll: Most groups will ask new riders where they are from. how long they will be around, how they found out about the ride, how many bikes they have, but maybe your group doesn't :(