New CTC group LGBT members

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Si
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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby Si » 30 Apr 2010, 10:14am

Your comment "The point being that if they hadn't all been white males then I believe that there is a fair chance that they wouldn't have made the remarks." is sterotyping and qualifies my original comments.


In what way is it stereotyping? It is an observation about a group of people that I met and talked too - it seems reasonable to suggest, based upon interaction with them, that if there had been, say, a black person or a woman present then they would not have so vigorously pursued their particular line of 'banter'. I was there, you were not. Sorry, but you do seem to be making an effort to be offended here - you should be careful not to accidentally paint yourself into a stereotype oft portrayed by certain areas of the media: that of the hard done-by middle-Englander....such a line can often do more harm than good.

As for "of course", well who is most likely to make derogatory jokes about women and non-whites? White males of course. But just because I say that this is the group that such behaviour is most likely to come from, it does not logically follow that all members of this group should indulge in such behaviour. Given that I am white and male, as clearly outlined in the post in question, would I really have made a remark that was meant to infer that all white males are overtly racist and sexist?

I was giving you the benefit of doubt by saying that your comments may not have an intent of giving offence.


By just stating that you were offended in your OP without adding any further clarification as to why or pointing out that you accept that it might not have been meant in the way that you read it? I think that you have committed the same offense that you are accusing me of - it's you who says it's about how the person reads it not what you meant :wink:

Sorry, but this is all just diverting from the original point, and just goes to show what the problems can be. In a thread about the very real problems that are sometimes (but by no means always) suffered by LGBT cyclists, we do keep getting side tracked by people using it as a vehicle to show how ill-treated the straight white middle class British male is, indeed, some people have felt so strongly about this that they've gone to the trouble of making extremely unpleasant comments that have gotten them banned from the forum :roll: . I've no doubt that in some cases white males are ill treated in this country (although not in this thread - if you think they are then raise it with one of the other moderators), but, whatever the MoS might say, their mistreatment pales into insignificance compared to that suffered by minority groups.

So, I'll have to ask you to forgive me if I get a little saddened when the thread does turn back again to the plight of the straight white middle class British male rather than the issues that it was really about, and also if my replies to you seem a little brusk - but having already taken a fair amount of abuse before I'd even posted on the thread it's all becoming a little tiresome.

Edwards
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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby Edwards » 30 Apr 2010, 12:17pm

I can not understand the complaint. The joke competition was sexist and racist, so who else would be telling them ?????????.

From of the white males I have met around here. I think I would rather ride with some of the minority groups so that I do not have to put up with the poor hard done by white males.
Keith Edwards
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workhard

Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby workhard » 30 Apr 2010, 12:43pm

I'm a straight white middle class male. I'm offended morning, noon, and night. I put this down to have having a straight white middle class male sense of entitlement that this world should revolve around me and my feelings, wants and desires. I then realise the stupidity of such a position and try to get over myself.

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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby Edwards » 30 Apr 2010, 1:52pm

workhard wrote:I'm a straight white middle class male. I'm offended morning, noon, and night. I put this down to have having a straight white middle class male sense of entitlement that this world should revolve around me and my feelings, wants and desires.


That used to be me. Now some give me the label "Special needs". :roll:

As I now have a label does that mean I can now be justifiably offended. :wink:
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Richard
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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby Richard » 30 Apr 2010, 1:54pm

Do homosexual men, when out as a group, tell jokes about hetrosexuals? Do they say to each other, when they see a good looking bloke, "fancy that?" and make lewd comments about what they'd like to do with him? ? Is this sexist? Should I, as a hetrosexual male, be offended by this type of behaviour if I was in their company? Should I start my own group for hetrosexuals so that I can be with people who I feel comfortable with?

The fact is yes, they do tell jokes and make lewd comments that can be as equally offensive and sexist as those made by hetrosexuals.

Should they stop? Certainly not. The fact that I can laugh at a homosexual joke doesn't make me homophobic. The fact that they laugh at hetrosexual jokes doesn't make them hetrophobic. It's just human nature and whilst we continue to make it an issue we prevent the real, serious acts of discrimination being tackled - jobs, housing, rights - that are being denied to people because of their sex (or religion, colour etc).

Homosexuals need to be a little more tolerant of us hetrosexuals sometimes - we're not as perfect as we think - and we need to be respectful and tolerant of homosexuals too. In fact, maybe if we were all tolerant of each others imperfections, regardless of sexuality, religion, colour, pannier preference, dropped/straight bar opinions, recumbent/DF preference, the world would be a happier, better place.

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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby Edwards » 30 Apr 2010, 2:05pm

Richard you forgot me "special needs". Does not the rest of society make jokes about us.
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meic
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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby meic » 30 Apr 2010, 2:05pm

This reminds me of the last run of this debate, now locked. :)

Someone commented on homosexuals attending rides and being blatantly homosexual, declaring "my partner" and giving their sex to make it obvious that they were in a single sex relationship.

Reminds me when I refused to attend a march in Sidney's gay district unless one of the female backpackers went with me, OK I did have a bit of an ulterior motive.

Also I imagine that if I attended one of the above rides with a group of homosexual bikers, I would mention my wife and children more quickly and frequently than usual even. :lol:

However after a very short while I would get used to it and all would be forgotten.
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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby Edwards » 30 Apr 2010, 2:29pm

meic this part from your last post made me think

meic wrote:Also I imagine that if I attended one of the above rides with a group of homosexual bikers, I would mention my wife and children more quickly and frequently than usual even


I wondered why you would feel the need to mention your family.

If you were on a ride organised for Afro Caribbean would you feel the need to tell them you are white :wink: . I hope not.

But if you we on a ride with another group whose difference you could not see would it be the same.
For example a ride for people with mental health issues. Would you feel the need to say something.
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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby meic » 30 Apr 2010, 3:13pm

Because I havent knowingly mix with homosexuals if I was aware that I was doing so I think I would be "subconsciously" aware of the fact and act that way as a sort of defence against unwanted advances.

I have had advances from men (when I was younger) and it merely amused me at the time but I cant deny I would be aware of the situation and probably act in the irrational way that I described.

The problem is that if you try and make honest statements like this you open yourself up to attacks for careless wording and admitting to being influenced by a lifetime of "education".
I was bought up the heart of NF territory, openly homosexual people did not exist (for long). The effects of such an upbringing in a strongly and violently homophobic atmosphere doesnt just disappear overnight because someone says it is out of fashion.

Until I have the experience of mixing with people who are being overtly gay, I cant say for sure that I would be 100% relaxed about it.
99% relaxed, probably.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby Edwards » 30 Apr 2010, 5:31pm

meic I feel I must apologise to you. In no way was I trying to attack your comments but was trying to show that non of us are rational as you say.
I was trying to put over how we can find mixing with different groups awkward and may feel out of it.


Edited to add
meic in all the discussion about LGBT groups I have found you the most understanding and honest. Which is why I was surprised by what you wrote.
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Re: New CTC group LGBT members

Postby meic » 30 Apr 2010, 7:39pm

It is alright I didnt take your comments personally at all.
I am just wary of how I phrase things because it is VERY easy to say the wrong thing, when discussing this subject, especially if you arent up to date with the latest version of acceptable terminology.
Yma o Hyd