Liability Disclaimers

Anything relating to the clubs associated with Cycling UK
road0195
Posts: 1
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 7:51am

Postby road0195 » 11 Feb 2009, 7:55am

Edwards wrote:I do not know this for certain, but my first thought was.
They could be a condition of the CTC Public Liability Insurance. Put in by the insurance company.
If in the event of a non CTC member making a claim for what ever reason the company might not then defend the claim and refuse to defend the ride leader.
If it is the above would you as ride leader want to try to get them to help (even if they are wrong). Or would it be better to know you are covered.


This is what I would like to know. Whatever my personal views on disclaimers, if we don't get them signed does that mean if there is an incident our insurance is invalidated?

Jimmy The Hand
Posts: 116
Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 11:26am

Postby Jimmy The Hand » 11 Feb 2009, 10:13am

road0195 wrote:This is what I would like to know. Whatever my personal views on disclaimers, if we don't get them signed does that mean if there is an incident our insurance is invalidated?


Have you asked Guildford? That's the only place where you will get the definitive answer.

Karen Sutton
Posts: 608
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:18pm
Location: Greater Manchester

Postby Karen Sutton » 11 Feb 2009, 1:38pm

Jimmy The Hand wrote:
road0195 wrote:This is what I would like to know. Whatever my personal views on disclaimers, if we don't get them signed does that mean if there is an incident our insurance is invalidated?


Have you asked Guildford? That's the only place where you will get the definitive answer.


I've asked a couple of people at National Office but not had any definitive answers. However I'm expecting a call on another matter from another CTC staff member who should be able to answer this. If I find anything out I'll post the info here.

byegad
Posts: 3232
Joined: 3 Sep 2007, 9:44am

Re: Liability Disclaimers

Postby byegad » 8 Mar 2009, 4:08pm

Karen have you anything further to add on this one?
"I thought of that while riding my bike." -Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
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Karen Sutton
Posts: 608
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:18pm
Location: Greater Manchester

Re: Liability Disclaimers

Postby Karen Sutton » 8 Mar 2009, 5:19pm

No I don't know any more about this as yet. I will have to try to contact National Office about it. The Local Group's Officer is quite new to the job and is snowed under with revising the Member Group databases at the moment; so although he is aware of this query he can't put the time into researching this yet. There is someone else I can ask but I think he will have to speak to others before we get a definitive reply. As the CTC AGM is coming up next month and I will be there I will find out then if not before.

manybikes
Posts: 300
Joined: 9 Apr 2007, 10:21am

Re: Liability Disclaimers

Postby manybikes » 8 Mar 2009, 10:01pm

Those at HQ seem to have short memories if they cannot answer such a simple question. I have responded earlier to this thread and ask that you read this if you have not done so. In short the "club" had a need to put its own house in order and show that it had taken sufficient steps to ensure compliance, as an organisation and by its members, to health and safety issues and adherance with the rules of law when riding. Those of us involved in 2002/2003 had reams and reams of paper thrown at us from HQ in a huge communications exercise and DAs responded to numerous requests over an extended period. I still have a copy of the paper I wrote for our DA magazine at the time to explain to our members their responsibilities as well as benefits.

In the end HQ failed to publish the final resuts in the Cycle magazine as it was deemed too heavy or took up too much space to warrant inclusion. Instead they buried the documents in the earlier version of their web and it needed an intimate knowledge of the system to find anything! Rather defeating the whole exercise one might think.

However the documents that were put out in 2003 (or thereabouts) became framed within the rules of the club, which include ride leader registration, accident reporting and non member Standard Entry Forms. The executive also wanted completion of a risk assessment form for any event other than a normal "club run" and a format was agreed and piloted, but in the end they dropped that one it seems.

Karen - if you are talking to HQ I suggest you speak to Kevin Mayne - he and I had long conversations about the whole issue so he should be able to give a definative answer to the situation now.

Oh and - of course the whole thing revolves around the thorny issue of public liability insurance - (designed to cover us and prevent us being sued as individuals). Without compliance we would not be covered when we thought we should be - so the insurers called the shots!
As I said earlier in answer to the original question - Yes we do still use the forms in our DA.

Karen Sutton
Posts: 608
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:18pm
Location: Greater Manchester

Re: Liability Disclaimers

Postby Karen Sutton » 9 Mar 2009, 2:04pm

manybikes wrote:
"However the documents that were put out in 2003 (or thereabouts) became framed within the rules of the club, which include ride leader registration, accident reporting and non member Standard Entry Forms. The executive also wanted completion of a risk assessment form for any event other than a normal "club run" and a format was agreed and piloted, but in the end they dropped that one it seems.

Karen - if you are talking to HQ I suggest you speak to Kevin Mayne - he and I had long conversations about the whole issue so he should be able to give a definative answer to the situation now".


I became DA Secretary for Manchester DA in November 2002, just in time to bear the brunt of the wrath of our Sections as the Organiser's Liability Insurance was rolled out. Most of the Ride Leaders and Event Organisers were very suspicious of it and were sure that signing up to it would increase their liability in some way. I eventually convinced them that it was for their own benefit as prior to this there was no automatic cover for them in the case of a personal claim against them rather than against the CTC or their Group. I continued as DA Secretary until November 2008, when I became Membership Registrar for South Manchester CTC as they became a Member Group independent of the old Manchester DA (now known as Manchester & District CTC)

I believe that the Standard Entry form, and other entry forms bearing the disclaimer, and which I was instrumental in getting revised and updated in 2006, (to make it simpler and more likely to be used) is an essential piece of the Ride Leader's/Organiser's kit which goes hand in hand with your Organiser's Liability cover and incident report forms. What I want to establish is whether not using these forms can invalidate our Organiser's Liability cover. And yes, Kevin is the person I will speak to; if I can get to speak with him before the AGM I will do so.

You are correct in that the Risk Assessments are not required for normal, regular group rides. More information can be found in the Guide for Ride Leaders. This leaflet was also developed by the Local Group working party which I led in 2006. This goes with the Guide for riding with a Group, which I now send out to new CTC members in our area together with details about our Group. We give the Guide to Ride Leaders to anyone interested or new to leading Rides for our Group. These leaflets can be requested from CTC and are available to view or download from the Local Groups resources area on this website.

Karen Sutton
Posts: 608
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:18pm
Location: Greater Manchester

Re: Liability Disclaimers

Postby Karen Sutton » 16 Mar 2009, 2:38pm

I have spoken to Kevin Mayne about this today. Kevin says that there has never been a claim up to now to test whether the Insurance Company will say there cannot be a claim if these forms are not signed. CTC would rather that the Insurance Company do not have to make this type of judgement, which is why we are advised to use the forms. CTC suggests that Ride Leaders and Organisers read the Insurance Fact sheet for Member Groups. This document states that:

"You are covered, provided the Ride/Event is run in accordance with any guidance issued by CTC and in particular that you are aware of all participants on the ride/event through collection of name and CTC membership number or by completion of an entry form".

Kevin has said that the advice from CTC is that ride leaders should read the Factsheet and make their own judgement.

Clearly those you can collect name/membership number from are already CTC members. The completion of an entry form (which contains the liability disclaimer) is to be done by non CTC members. Kevin also said that if you were entering a time trial or similar, you would expect to complete a form. For a rider who is not a CTC member the same rules should apply.

The Insurance Factsheet for CTC Member Groups can be seen by following the link below. The Factsheet for affiliated Clubs is a different document. All insurance factsheets can be found in the Resources area of this website.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Go_Biki ... Groups.pdf

manybikes
Posts: 300
Joined: 9 Apr 2007, 10:21am

Re: Liability Disclaimers

Postby manybikes » 16 Mar 2009, 7:31pm

Karen
Well the message seems to be clear - "follow the guidelines or rules or risk being on your own if a claim is made". I would have liked CTC to be more definitive actually. All clubs have to have rules and if you don't want to follow them why stay. What is the point in risking litigation when you do not need to. Thank you for pursuing it.