CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

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Simon L6
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Simon L6 » 31 Mar 2009, 11:17am

the point is this. We haven't sold 70,000 memberships. And members of affiliates are not full members. That's why the get in for (if memory serves) twelve quid.

The general point is that there's a good deal of phrasemaking going on about the silent majority of members. The ones who apparently provide the platform from which the contracting arm of the CTC derives its legitimacy. That's all a bit pony. We've got under 30,000 signing up each year (and my guess is that it's declining) and about 5,000 life members. And that's before you get in to the legitimacy of the figures in the report - which I don't accept.

The importance of this is....it would appear that the active members of the much-derided DAs do, in fact, form a higher percentage of the membership than is generally held to be the case. I'd figure on there being at least 2000 active members (there's over 100 in my little patch, and heaven knows how many in West Kent) which is a fair slice of something a tad over 30,000.

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Si
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Si » 31 Mar 2009, 11:46am

So given that the figures that are normally bandied about are 50000 CTC members + 20000 affiliated to make up the 70000 total, if you reckon that there are 35,000 CTC members (inc lifers) what are/where are the other 15000?

I have suggested, to someone at HO who seemed concerned over the misrepresentation of membership problems, that the current issue logging system for membership problems is somewhat lacking in its ability to monitor the real situation *. Are you suggesting that the overall membership system is unable to produce reliable figures too? Or are you suggesting that there is a debate as to what actually passes for a real CTC member?

Regarding the numbers within the DAs, I think that you may be calculating on the conservative side and that they may be even more representative than you think! Given the changes to Member Groups and the concerns about HO systems ability to keep tabs on such things, the representation of Member Group members might become more difficult to understand once we are allowed to join more than one!

* I did invite that someone from HO to publish the figures for membership problems on the forum so that they could put an end to the endless speculation about what I was informed were non-existent major problems. My invitation was not taken up: there may be a good reason why this was so but as I was not given it you will have to read into it what you will.

Jimmy The Hand
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Jimmy The Hand » 31 Mar 2009, 11:56am

Simon L6 wrote:the point is this. We haven't sold 70,000 memberships. And members of affiliates are not full members.

The figure I used of 59,804 is individual members as quoted in the AR there are another 294 clubs organisations etc which I didn't count

Simon L6 wrote: ..... We've got under 30,000 signing up each year (and my guess is that it's declining) and about 5,000 life members. And that's before you get in to the legitimacy of the figures in the report - which I don't accept.

Where do you get your figures from and why don't you accept the "official" figures

Karen Sutton
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Karen Sutton » 31 Mar 2009, 12:31pm

Simon L6 wrote:the point is this. We haven't sold 70,000 memberships. And members of affiliates are not full members. That's why the get in for (if memory serves) twelve quid.



The importance of this is....it would appear that the active members of the much-derided DAs do, in fact, form a higher percentage of the membership than is generally held to be the case. I'd figure on there being at least 2000 active members (there's over 100 in my little patch, and heaven knows how many in West Kent) which is a fair slice of something a tad over 30,000.


There are about 80 active group members in our little patch, and that is just South Manchester; that does not include other active group members in the Manchester Member Group and its subsidiaries.

Karen Sutton
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Karen Sutton » 31 Mar 2009, 12:42pm

Si wrote:So given that the figures that are normally bandied about are 50000 CTC members + 20000 affiliated to make up the 70000 total, if you reckon that there are 35,000 CTC members (inc lifers) what are/where are the other 15000?

I have suggested, to someone at HO who seemed concerned over the misrepresentation of membership problems, that the current issue logging system for membership problems is somewhat lacking in its ability to monitor the real situation *. Are you suggesting that the overall membership system is unable to produce reliable figures too? Or are you suggesting that there is a debate as to what actually passes for a real CTC member?

Regarding the numbers within the DAs, I think that you may be calculating on the conservative side and that they may be even more representative than you think! Given the changes to Member Groups and the concerns about HO systems ability to keep tabs on such things, the representation of Member Group members might become more difficult to understand once we are allowed to join more than one!

* I did invite that someone from HO to publish the figures for membership problems on the forum so that they could put an end to the endless speculation about what I was informed were non-existent major problems. My invitation was not taken up: there may be a good reason why this was so but as I was not given it you will have to read into it what you will.


It is my understanding, as no figures are available, that nobody at Membership Services is logging problems; that is, when they receive a call from someone who hasn't had their renewal/membership card/magazine nobody records it. Therefore the staff will believe there is no significant problem as there is no proof. Obviously there is no record kept of those who don't get their renewal and simply lapse as a result. Only a sample of non renewals are surveyed as to why they have left, so no true picture from that. When Simon and I were on National Council we both tried to highlight the obvious flaws in the system. We were repeatedly told that there were no significant flaws.

Simon, will you be at the AGM to hear the report?

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Simon L6
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Simon L6 » 31 Mar 2009, 2:14pm

Karen - I will be.

In a nutshell, you have to look at the annual subscription receipts and do some maths.

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Simon L6
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Simon L6 » 31 Mar 2009, 2:18pm

Si - I take your point. I deliberately kept my estimate on the conservative side.

thirdcrank
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby thirdcrank » 31 Mar 2009, 7:32pm

Si wrote:I have suggested, to someone at HO who seemed concerned over the misrepresentation of membership problems ...


This phrase has caused a historically rare condition. (I am speechless.)

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Si
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Si » 31 Mar 2009, 7:39pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Si wrote:I have suggested, to someone at HO who seemed concerned over the misrepresentation of membership problems ...


This phrase has caused a historically rare condition. (I am speechless.)


I chose my words carefully such that I was not forced to instantly sin-bin myself :twisted:

Zanda
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Zanda » 15 Apr 2009, 10:56am

On a more general point, does the agenda contain each of the motions that were proposed? If not, what were the criteria for selection of those that made it on to the agenda?

Biking Bill
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Biking Bill » 15 Apr 2009, 12:36pm

This really is not complicated. Saw my councillor on a ride on Sunday, he emailed me back this morning because coucil get a report on the breakdown. Don't know why Simon didn't get it when he was on Council.

Roughly 60,000 members, half full price adults, the other half seniors, household, family, life. All treated as full members. About 1000 pay the affilation fee version.

What Simon is suggesting is that anyone who pays less than the full price is some sort of second class citizen. If you take out the seniors and life members our DA, sorry MG would not exist. I think 30 years of runs leading entitles me a bit of discount without loss of benefits now I am on a pension doesn't it Simon? That doesn't mean the club is going to the dogs.

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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Zanda » 15 Apr 2009, 2:38pm

Biking Bill wrote:What Simon is suggesting is that anyone who pays less than the full price is some sort of second class citizen.


No he's not.

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Si
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Si » 15 Apr 2009, 2:53pm

Zanda wrote:
Biking Bill wrote:What Simon is suggesting is that anyone who pays less than the full price is some sort of second class citizen.


No he's not.


I have to agree with Zanda.
My interpretation is that Simon is just talking about those that would choose to join if they were not life members or they weren't members as part of someone else's membership, and about those that don't pay the max subscription only in terms of how much money the total yearly subs bring in. I see no aspertion cast on those people with this type of membership by Simon.

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Simon L6
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Re: CTC AGM Chester Saturday 25 April 2009

Postby Simon L6 » 17 Apr 2009, 5:52pm

I'm not, and if I gave that impression to you Biking Bill, I offer my apologies.

The annual report shows subscription income at about £1.5 million. Some of that will be family memberships, some will be individual memberships, and some will be memberships taken through affiliates. Whatever way you slice it, you're not going to have 70,000 people paying subs....

A first step would be to establish, beyond doubt, how many members, other than life members, had renewed their memberships within the last twelve months. Now I've sat on Council meetings, and asked the question, and not been clear about the answer. Maybe I simply wasn't hearing right, but it does seem a straightforward question, with, one would have thought, a straightforward answer....