CTC Membership Services

Anything relating to the clubs associated with Cycling UK
Karen Sutton
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Location: Greater Manchester

Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby Karen Sutton » 30 Jan 2010, 6:15pm

robgul wrote:.... my e-mail addresses are "seeded" to be able to identify senders - I have replied to what I assume to be a "three line whip" e-mail asking how the individual that e-mailed me go my address ... we'll see what happens.

Perhaps Karen might cut and paste her message on this thread to see if it's the same as the message others have had.

Rob



This is the email from the two North West Councillors (one of whom is Chair of Counci)l:

"Dear Member

You will shortly be receiving your copy of Cycle magazine with a further instalment of the charity debate. We hope that you can spare a few moments to read this message.

As your elected North West councillors we felt it was important to let you know the position of the CTC National Council and of ourselves on this important issue. The National Council has been looking at this matter for several years and following advice from our own governance group, and two external consultants, Council, in October at its Manchester meeting, voted, with only one against, to recommend a unified charity . Your two councillors strongly support this.

We recognise that the membership will make the final decision at our AGM at Loughborough in May of this year. To support you in that decision we would recommend that you look at the CTC website where we have posted a series of frequently asked questions.

In the latest edition of Cycle you will see two articles ‘For’ and ‘Against’ the proposal. In the ‘against’ article the impression is wrongly given that the club have to support loss making charitable activities. The reverse is in fact the case. With our present charitable activities and the overhead costs, the CTC Trust has, in the latest accounts, saved the club £430k . In the accounts, monies transferred from the club to the trust are for member services provided by the trust.

Sounds complicated we know; and that’s one of the reasons why converting to a unified charity will bring greater clarity. Incidentally we have full confidence in the CTC’s financial management. As part of the accountability process our financial advisor and chair of a management committee, both of whom are highly qualified financial experts, have examined the accounts in detail and confirm the positive figures presented. None of our charitable contracts are ‘loss making’.

The financial benefits from becoming a full charity, partly with the opportunity of gift aid, will increase resources for the CTC to promote cycling. As your North West councillors we feel that this will provide increasing financial resources to our local member groups to support the excellent activities that they offer to you as members.

We do not hide the fact that we are excited by the opportunities ahead. Our membership is at a record level and there is real confidence in the organisation. As a unified organisation we will promote and campaign for cyclists nationally; distinct from other cycling organisations. We do hope that you will feel able to support the case for unification. If you cannot make the AGM then please use your proxy vote which will be available in the April edition of Cycle.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Welna Bowden and David Robinson

P.S. It is attached as a word document for printing".

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robgul
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby robgul » 30 Jan 2010, 9:08pm

meic wrote:I cant see why our councilors shouldnt have our email addresses.

I would expect head office to give my email address to both my local CTC group and councilor. Afterall if you dont know what they are thinking, how do you know if they are representing you?


In principle I would agree BUT only for purposes of disseminating facts - e.g. events, member group information et - NOT for making the sort of urging, nay begging, messages that have been sent out - clearly "assisted" by CTC.

Rob

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meic
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby meic » 31 Jan 2010, 12:24am

I dont have a problem with them getting my email address, even if I disagree with what they are saying.
If they choose to use it in an unfair manner, it would just harden my resolve to act against their wishes and have them replaced by someone more to my liking. Although I havent seen anything yet which makes me feel like standing for councilor myself. I am too lazy.
Then again I do have a councilor that I trust, so I may have a different perspective.
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby thirdcrank » 31 Jan 2010, 5:22pm

It will be interesting to see the result of these emails - if there is a way of knowing.

It's been noted already on here that democracy in the CTC is not exactly thriving in the sense that Council elections often return candidates unopposed and some seats have remained vacant until a "volunteer" was too slow taking the two paces back. Very sad.

One result of that is that many councillors seem to be unknown beyond their own circle. In these circumstances, a personal appeal means that the recipients feel no particular personal loyalty towards the sender. Then they tend to use other factors to form a judgment about the sender. My own impression from the admittedly small sample of people I have spoken to (but there is also a sense of it on here in some of the comments about these emails) is that they think it is "not right" to have side-by-side "For" and "Against" given equal space and prominence and then one side being able to use facilities denied the other to try to undermine their argument and even, in one case at least, to indulge in denigration. The result of the vote may have been inevitable from the outset - I've no idea - but if the proposal is rejected, this email campaign may well have been a turning point.

FWIW, one of my conversations with fellow members was at a 70th birthday party last night. The CTC member, already well past 70 returned to cycling at the age of 60 purely to do charity rides. Preparing for them and then taking part is his only motivation for cycling. A pro-conversion man if ever there was one, I thought. He told me he had glanced at the arguments in the mag and had quickly decided that the "For" case was spin. "They are obviously hiding something." When I began to discuss the issues his repeated line was "I'll be voting for the status quo." His resolve to vote was reinforced when I explained the 75% majority requirement.

glueman
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby glueman » 31 Jan 2010, 9:15pm

It's a vicious circle, the majority see no point in getting involved because the club is being run by a management executive, giving that exec a mandate because no-one's getting involved.

A genuine response would be to express surprise that members feel so strongly about the issue and an attempt to address their concerns in a meaningful way. The spin, which can be summarised as charitable status is the only way forward, everything to date has been a mediocre run up to this event, diversity and inclusion can only be addressed once you've given it the nod - is the kind of party politiking we'd expect in a run up to a general election, not the debate in a member's club.

If the vote is passed, and there's every reason to believe it will be, the membership will be handing virtually unlimited power to the executive to decide non-competitive cycling policy in this country. The game for the member's club will be up. I suspect that will atomise cycle touring and campaigning into a multitude of groups offering similar services on the cheap, an event that will concern CTC not over much, as they expect their income stream and sphere of influence will be elsewhere.

We live in interesting times.

workhard

Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby workhard » 1 Feb 2010, 8:05am

glueman wrote:It's a vicious circle, the majority see no point in getting involved because the club is being run by a management executive, giving that exec a mandate because no-one's getting involved.

...

The game for the member's club will be up. I suspect that will atomise cycle touring and campaigning into a multitude of groups offering similar services on the cheap, an event that will concern CTC not over much, as they expect their income stream and sphere of influence will be elsewhere.

We live in interesting times.


Well put glueman. I've been a member off and on over a period of 15 years and for nearly all that time my attitude has been that you describe above.

But given a forthcoming general election, huge public debt and likely spending cuts do the exec really think their income streams from central and local govt over the next five years are secure? If they do then they are the only exec in the not-for-profit sector I've heard of with this confidence. If they don't, and I'd suggest they are well aware of the risks, then they will have looked around for a solid income stream. It would appear they believe they have found one in Club membership subscriptions.

Regulator
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby Regulator » 2 Feb 2010, 11:15am

Karen Sutton wrote:
robgul wrote:.... my e-mail addresses are "seeded" to be able to identify senders - I have replied to what I assume to be a "three line whip" e-mail asking how the individual that e-mailed me go my address ... we'll see what happens.

Perhaps Karen might cut and paste her message on this thread to see if it's the same as the message others have had.

Rob



This is the email from the two North West Councillors (one of whom is Chair of Counci)l:

"Dear Member

You will shortly be receiving your copy of Cycle magazine with a further instalment of the charity debate. We hope that you can spare a few moments to read this message.

As your elected North West councillors we felt it was important to let you know the position of the CTC National Council and of ourselves on this important issue. The National Council has been looking at this matter for several years and following advice from our own governance group, and two external consultants, Council, in October at its Manchester meeting, voted, with only one against, to recommend a unified charity . Your two councillors strongly support this.

We recognise that the membership will make the final decision at our AGM at Loughborough in May of this year. To support you in that decision we would recommend that you look at the CTC website where we have posted a series of frequently asked questions.

In the latest edition of Cycle you will see two articles ‘For’ and ‘Against’ the proposal. In the ‘against’ article the impression is wrongly given that the club have to support loss making charitable activities. The reverse is in fact the case. With our present charitable activities and the overhead costs, the CTC Trust has, in the latest accounts, saved the club £430k . In the accounts, monies transferred from the club to the trust are for member services provided by the trust.

Sounds complicated we know; and that’s one of the reasons why converting to a unified charity will bring greater clarity. Incidentally we have full confidence in the CTC’s financial management. As part of the accountability process our financial advisor and chair of a management committee, both of whom are highly qualified financial experts, have examined the accounts in detail and confirm the positive figures presented. None of our charitable contracts are ‘loss making’.

The financial benefits from becoming a full charity, partly with the opportunity of gift aid, will increase resources for the CTC to promote cycling. As your North West councillors we feel that this will provide increasing financial resources to our local member groups to support the excellent activities that they offer to you as members.

We do not hide the fact that we are excited by the opportunities ahead. Our membership is at a record level and there is real confidence in the organisation. As a unified organisation we will promote and campaign for cyclists nationally; distinct from other cycling organisations. We do hope that you will feel able to support the case for unification. If you cannot make the AGM then please use your proxy vote which will be available in the April edition of Cycle.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Welna Bowden and David Robinson

P.S. It is attached as a word document for printing".


Given their assurances that everything is rosy in the CTC garden, perhaps David Robinson and Welna Bowden might like to answer the following:

In the 2008/9 accounts, there are payments totalling £863,599 from the Club to the Trust. An explanation of this sum was given at the Council meeting on 23 January 2010. The Chair of the Management Committee explained that, of the £860,000 (rounded down for ease):

• £407,000 was for ‘services’ supplied by the Trust to the Club
• £453,000 was a ‘subvention*’ from the Club to the Trust

Can David Robinson and Welna Bowden explain (and itemise):

1. what ‘services’ were provided for the sum of £407,000 and what each of those services cost; and,

2. why the Club is giving the Trust a ‘subvention’ (a grant of financial aid) of £453,000? What is it for and why is it necessary, given the assertion in the recent e-mails that the Trust is making money on its contracts?

Another assertion made in their e-mailis that the Trust has ‘saved the Club £430,000’. Can they explain what these ‘savings’ actually are and how the figure of £430,000 is reached?

Those who are assuring you that everything is OK and the Trust isn't losing money, or who are suggesting that some councillors and ex-councillors are acting maliciously, must surely be able to answer these questions as they relate to substantial sums of money and go to the heart of the concerns people are expressing over the financial situation.

If they're saying everything is OK then they should be able to give coherent and detailed answers to these questions. :wink:

However, perhaps I shall just sit and count the pigs passing my first floor window... :lol:

*(A ‘subvention’ is defined as: ‘(1) Provision of help, aid, or support. (2) An endowment or a subsidy, as that given by a government to an institution for research; a grant of financial aid.’)

thirdcrank
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Feb 2010, 11:24am

To the sound of The Dambusters March:
flying pig.jpg

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robgul
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby robgul » 2 Feb 2010, 11:41am

thirdcrank wrote:To the sound of The Dambusters March:
flying pig.jpg



And the pig can't make up its mind whether to wear a helmet or not :)

Rob

Regulator
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby Regulator » 2 Feb 2010, 11:47am

"As your North West councillors we feel that this will provide increasing financial resources to our local member groups to support the excellent activities that they offer to you as members."

Does this mean that the CTC is going to increase the subvention to member groups from the miserly 18p per member per year that it currently is? First I've heard of it...

Karen Sutton
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Location: Greater Manchester

Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby Karen Sutton » 2 Feb 2010, 12:02pm

Regulator wrote:"As your North West councillors we feel that this will provide increasing financial resources to our local member groups to support the excellent activities that they offer to you as members."

Does this mean that the CTC is going to increase the subvention to member groups from the miserly 18p per member per year that it currently is? First I've heard of it...


If they were to put that on the table as an incentive now I would be more likely to regard it as a bribe. As a Membership Registrar who writes to new members (the stamp alone is more than 18p) I am aware of how little we receive at present. In fact I'd be very surprised if we had been paid ours yet. (Makes note to self to check with Treasurer).

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fausto copy
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby fausto copy » 2 Feb 2010, 6:49pm

Karen Sutton wrote:
Regulator wrote:"As your North West councillors we feel that this will provide increasing financial resources to our local member groups to support the excellent activities that they offer to you as members."

Does this mean that the CTC is going to increase the subvention to member groups from the miserly 18p per member per year that it currently is? First I've heard of it...


If they were to put that on the table as an incentive now I would be more likely to regard it as a bribe. As a Membership Registrar who writes to new members (the stamp alone is more than 18p) I am aware of how little we receive at present. In fact I'd be very surprised if we had been paid ours yet. (Makes note to self to check with Treasurer).


I'm not aware that our club have ever received any "subvention".
As we used to be a section of a DA I suppose that was inevitable.
However, since we've become a "member group" I presume we would be entitled to something.
Does anyone know if we need to claim it or is there a procedure to go through?

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Simon L6
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby Simon L6 » 2 Feb 2010, 10:32pm

Peter Jackson is the best person to ask, but the usual thing is to fill in a form provided by him when you do the Annual Return.

It's not a fortune - 18p per member on your patch.

glueman
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby glueman » 3 Feb 2010, 7:58am

I've been informed that 3 out of 20 CTC councillors are active in local groups. Is it any wonder DA/MGs are going to hell in a handcart? Surely a familiarity with groups should be a pre-requisite for council unless someone is bringing in a specialist skill?

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Simon L6
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Postby Simon L6 » 3 Feb 2010, 8:28am

It all depends what you mean by active, of course, but, to be fair I can think of four straight off the bat. Jim Briown is a mainstay - organising early evening rides for beginners and one of the biggest annual rides in his part of the world - the Emitremmus. Richard Bates, Peter Brake and Greg Price all go out with their groups (Greg's roadside local interest talks have to be heard to be believed) - and I'm sure there's many more. Norman Hayes is active, and, of course, headed up the local effort for the Birthday Rides. Don't forget that John Meudell is a tireless servant of the RtR movement. Barry Jordan is no longer on Council, but he is an active member of West Kent and I think is now starting up his local group - and Jill Kieran was an active member of her DA.