Member Group Subscription.

Anything relating to the clubs associated with Cycling UK
BHowe
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Member Group Subscription.

Postby BHowe » 16 Dec 2010, 8:03pm

My local Member Group does not regard me as being a member because I do not buy the magazine published by the group. The magazine cost £6 so it is not so much the money more the principal.
They say I am not a "full member" and, for instance, cannot vote at the Member Group agm. There is a competition between this group and 3 other local Member Groups. Points are awarded to each rider in each event and these points are credited to the member group he/she belongs. Trophies are awarded to individuals who ride most events and to the Member Group whose members have been awarded most points when added together. If I take part in any of these activities I have been told that my Member Group will not be awarded the points.
I believe I am a full member of this Member Group due to my CTC subscription and it is not correct to demand a further subscription to become a fully participating member of the Member Group. Am I correct ?

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gaz
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Location: Kent, lorry park of England

Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby gaz » 17 Dec 2010, 2:04pm

It's some years since I've dabled in member group politics but I'll venture my opinions.

Member Group Rides and Points Competition.

If you've paid your subs to National Office you are a member and entitled to take part in club rides*. From your post you already seem to be taking part in the rides and I hope you've found them enjoyable and had a warm welcome.

The competition is separate. If the rules of the competition require you to subscribe to the magazine to participate then that's what you'll have to do. By all means ask to see the rules.

*Subject to showing respect to other riders. CTC has a policy "In the extreme event that individuals put the group at risk through their behaviour you (a ride leader) should have access to a complaints procedure which includes a disciplinary code up to and including bans from participation." Additionally apply common sense to rides advertised as "Veterans", "Ladies", etc.

Voting at AGMs

Historically the CTC had geographical DAs with formal committees and Sections reporting to these DAs with or without their own committee structures. To vote you needed to be a member of CTC and the relevant group. Since DAs were geographical determining membership by residence was possible, discretion was usually applied to regular riders who resided outside the boundaries to allow them to vote as well. Sections who had a geographical base applied similar principles. Some Sections weren't geographical and their AGM's were the domain of regular riders only.

A few years ago the DA's became formal "member groups", the Sections "Informal groups", although a few sections went formal. Since then new groups have formed, usually formal in nature and non-geographic.

Provided you have met either the relevant geographic or regular rider requirements for your local group then I can see no reason to require anything other than national CTC membership to vote in a group's AGM.

Resolving matters.

From the situation you describe I'd guess you have four Sections of a DA. Have a search here. Once you find your local member group click on it and at the bottom of the details page it should either be listed as a formal "Member Group" or "Informal group of XXXXX" where "XXXXX" is the formal "Member Group".

Informal groups are not required to have any committee structure. The formal "Member Group" is responsible for the informal groups affiliated to it. The formal "Member Group" will have a "Welfare Officer" through whom these issues can be raised.
He's got Bette Davis knees.

E.C.Ryder
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Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby E.C.Ryder » 17 Dec 2010, 6:43pm

As long as your a paid up member of the CTC you can ride with any CTC group and you don`t have to pay any other yearly sub. Some group may ask for a 50p per ride just to help out with their cost, but any other subs are voluntary.

BHowe
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 2:51pm
Location: Worthing West Sussex

Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby BHowe » 17 Dec 2010, 7:05pm

gaz wrote:It's some years since I've dabled in member group politics but I'll venture my opinions.

Member Group Rides and Points Competition.

If you've paid your subs to National Office you are a member and entitled to take part in club rides*. From your post you already seem to be taking part in the rides and I hope you've found them enjoyable and had a warm welcome.

The competition is separate. If the rules of the competition require you to subscribe to the magazine to participate then that's what you'll have to do. By all means ask to see the rules.

Thank you Gaz,

To answer your query, there are few rules about the inter group competition but purchase of the magazine is certainly not one of them. It is a DA competition in which each rider gains points for their member group, and themselves, simply by their participation in the half dozen or so events.

It is stated that purchase of the magazine is optional within the DA but it seems if you do opt not to purchase then you are regarded as a second class member, by my local member group at least.

One other local group broke away from this DA to form a new separate DA and the this magazine issue was one of the major contributing factors. This new DA has a simple news letter which cost £0.50 but its purchase is entirely optional as the information is also available on the web. Their belief, and mine, is that if you are a full member of the CTC you are already a full member of the local area Member Group.

My wife and I do participate in rides regularly but we also ride with each of the other three groups and several others on occasion. I have in fact been a nominated runs leader but the magazine issue seems to prevent us from being fully accepted. We regularly travel around Britain and have cycled with a number of member groups and have been enthusiastically welcomed to join in with rides upto 100 miles when in their areas. Sometimes more enthusiastically than by the group in which I believe we are full members and it is entirely due to the shadow the magazine subscription casts.

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gaz
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Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby gaz » 17 Dec 2010, 8:14pm

BHowe wrote:Thank you Gaz,
To answer your query, there are few rules about the inter group competition but purchase of the magazine is certainly not one of them. It is a DA competition in which each rider gains points for their member group, and themselves, simply by their participation in the half dozen or so events.


If the rules don't specify it, or at least imply it*, then it's time to go to the "Welfare Officer" to ensure the rules are applied fairly, so that all members can participate regardless of magazine subscription. Every Member Group (DA) is obliged by National Office to have a "Welfare Officer" to help with such situations. It'll be just your luck that he's also head of the points competition sub-committee. :wink:

* I'm imagining a scenario where the rules refer to "full members" and "full membership" is defined elsewhere in the DA's history books.

Documents of further interest

Wish I'd thought to look at the handbook earlier. It certainly clears up the AGM issue, you can choose one section and it's corresponding DA. You are a member of that one section and DA in terms of AGM voting. No magazine purchase necessary. :wink:

CTC Member Group policy handbook.

From which :-

What members might expect from CTC and its Groups

...For CTC Groups to be free to join...

What CTC Council might expect of Groups

...For membership of the group to be free except for such costs as may be appropriate for specific activities, events or publications...

How do members join CTC Groups

Member Groups

CTC Member Group membership is free to CTC members on payment of their annual subscription and all Member Groups must be open to all CTC members within the practice and spirit of CTC equal opportunities policies.

CTC members will be able to choose to be listed as a “member” with any Member Groups that may cover their interests. They must however specify one group which will be their “main” group, this will be designated their “main” membership. The main group is the only group in which they may vote at general meetings (refer to Procedure at General Meetings, page 16), nominate to take part in national competitions and claim subscription levy (refer to Formal Procedures: Financial, page 20).

If a member chooses to be listed with a Member Group that was previously a Section, their subscription levy will be claimed by that Member Group and they will also have voting membership of that group and the main Member Group.

If the member specifies a main Member Group (previously known as the DA) as their main group, they will not have voting rights in any other Member Group within the hierarchy or outside.

To nominate or change the main membership or any additional listed memberships CTC members must personally contact the national membership department and identify the relevant groups.

The default Member Group to which main membership will be allocated will be based on the members’ residential postcode. In the event that more than one group covers the same postcode Council has ruled that the membership will be allocated to Member Groups currently existing as DAs at the date of adoption of these rules.

Welfare Officer Guidelines, including links to the full complaint procedure.

Good Luck.
He's got Bette Davis knees.

BHowe
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 2:51pm
Location: Worthing West Sussex

Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby BHowe » 18 Dec 2010, 2:00pm

gaz wrote:Wish I'd thought to look at the handbook earlier. It certainly clears up the AGM issue, you can choose one section and it's corresponding DA. You are a member of that one section and DA in terms of AGM voting. No magazine purchase necessary. :wink:


Gaz,
I have printed off the handbook extract and will produce it the next time this isssue is raised.

Thank you again.

davebax
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Location: Bristol

Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby davebax » 18 Dec 2010, 8:11pm

The portion of the CTC Policy Handbook for Groups "How do members join CTC groups" quoted by gaz above contains contradictions that suggest that CTC don't understand their own membership structure.

Para 2: "They must however specify one group which will be their “main” group, this will be designated their “main” membership. The main group is the only group in which they may vote at general meetings." So only one group with voting rights.

Para 3: "If a member chooses to be listed with a Member Group that was previously a Section, their subscription levy will be claimed by that Member Group and they will also have voting membership of that group and the main Member Group." So 2 groups with voting rights.

Para 6: "The default Member Group to which main membership will be allocated will be based on the members’ residential postcode. In the event that more than one group covers the same postcode Council has ruled that the membership will be allocated to Member Groups currently existing as DAs at the date of adoption of these rules." So by default, if your postcode lies within a (former) DA area, you are a voting member only of this "DA" MG. Which suggests to me, as I expect very few CTC members have overriden the default, that most sub-DA MGs (formerly sections) have no voting members. This may come as a bit of a shock to them - it renders their AGM meaningless, their committee unelected, and questions their very existence.

Richard
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Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby Richard » 18 Dec 2010, 8:24pm

I'd stop worrying about it and find yourself some better cycling friends.....

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gaz
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Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby gaz » 19 Dec 2010, 9:46am

davebax wrote:The portion of the CTC Policy Handbook for Groups "How do members join CTC groups" quoted by gaz above contains contradictions that suggest that CTC don't understand their own membership structure.


I'd suggest that the member groups don't understand the member group structure. :wink:

davebax wrote:Which suggests to me, as I expect very few CTC members have overriden the default, that most sub-DA MGs (formerly sections) have no voting members. This may come as a bit of a shock to them - it renders their AGM meaningless, their committee unelected, and questions their very existence.


When the CTC introduced it's new structure of "Formal" Member Groups and "Informal groups" the majority of DA's and Sections aligned themselves accordingly. A Section can have "Formal" Member Group status if it fulfills the criteria (notably the committee structure) but still be a sub-group of the former DA. IMO that's the sort of situation paragraph 3 is refering to.

As I said it's some years since I dabled in member group politics so I won't try to answer points on the validity of "informal group" AGMs and committees.
He's got Bette Davis knees.

davebax
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Location: Bristol

Re: Member Group Subscription.

Postby davebax » 20 Dec 2010, 6:09pm

gaz wrote:I'd suggest that the member groups don't understand the member group structure. :wink:
Fair enough - but only because the CTC document fails to present it clearly & unambiguouslly.
gaz wrote:When the CTC introduced it's new structure of "Formal" Member Groups and "Informal groups" the majority of DA's and Sections aligned themselves accordingly. A Section can have "Formal" Member Group status if it fulfills the criteria (notably the committee structure) but still be a sub-group of the former DA. IMO that's the sort of situation paragraph 3 is refering to.
AFAIK, para 6 holds sway and para 3 is ineffectual. I'm told that the CTCWest (formerly Bristol DA) AGM was presented with a motion by one of its formal sub-groups (formerly a section), asking for agreement that all CTC members living in its postcode area, a subset of the CTCWest postcode area, be reallocoted to the sub-group, the reason being that the sub-group realised they had no members, and were officially impotent. I wasn't at this AGM - can anyone on this forum please confirm (or correct) this?