What do do about members group refusing to follow nat policy

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thirdcrank
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Apr 2011, 10:15pm

This thread prompted me to look at the CTC leaflet "CTC CYCLING GUIDELINES FOR GROUP LEADERS"

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Go_Biki ... rguide.pdf

I'd suggest the unintentional message on the position of ride leaders is: "All hunky dory until something goes wrong."

Tonyf33
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Tonyf33 » 9 Apr 2011, 4:11am

It is quite possible that the club is acting illegally. The Equality Act 2010 says that you cannot discriminate against a person because they have an association with someone who is disabled but also that you cannot discriminate against a person requiring a service. The fact that the CTC organisation offers a service (that is paid for at that) seems to me bring it under the auspices of the Act.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents
Particularly Part 3 Services And Functions. within that it says'

29 Provision of services, etc.
(1)A person (a “service-provider”) concerned with the provision of a service to the public or a section of the public (for payment or not) must not discriminate against a person requiring the service by not providing the person with the service.
(2)A service-provider (A) must not, in providing the service, discriminate against a person (B)—
(a)as to the terms on which A provides the service to B;
(b)by terminating the provision of the service to B;
(c)by subjecting B to any other detriment.
Also
"(7)A duty to make reasonable adjustments applies to—
(a)a service-provider"

If the CTC say that a 13yr need not be accompanied then this could in theory cause a massive headache for someone!

To be fair I hardly think a 13 year old lad who wants to cycle with a ctc group is hardly the type to be stepping out of line every 5 minutes(especially since dad is known to the group as well?). Whilst I can understand it if it was a local 'yoof' who had been forced to tag along as some sort of sick punishment ( :lol: ) doled out by the local authorities I could well understand the reluctance. However it isn't.

Personally though I don't 'do' ctc riding per se, I would think it quite nice to have a young 'un along to pass down your words of wisdom toThe greater worry I'd have is if he would delay the group inordinately

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Cunobelin
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Apr 2011, 7:55am

I never like reducing this type of thing to a personal level, but is there a "moral" aspect here.

If this had simply been a lazy parent who was trying to use the club as a "baby sitting service" which is so familiar to anyone who works with a youth group.

This appears to be a youngster who is keen to cycle and a parent who is keen to support this interest but due to disability unable to do so. We can offer help and support or not.

Morally I would have thought we should be helping this family. Providing the rides are suitable, and within his capacity then is there really a problem?

thirdcrank
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Apr 2011, 9:27am

I cannot see what this has to do with disabilty - that's just a red herring here, and it has clouded the discussion. Indeed, although I'm no expert on discrimination, it sounds to me as though this policy applies to all people in that age group - unaccompanied junior rideres are unwelcome, endov. I've edited the OP to leave what seems to me to be relevant.

Phil_Lee wrote:My local members group seem to be unwilling to follow national policy on junior riders.
National guidelines (which I'm sure have been properly researched and are in full compliance with the law) are that from age 13 to 18, riders on group rides should have parental permission, and should only need to be accompanied below the age of 13.

My eldest son is now 13 and a member, and should be able to join rides without my being present - ...The policy of the local member group is preventing him from being able to participate in a club THAT HE HAS PAID MONEY TO JOIN.

This cannot be right, but with a bunch of paranoid on the committee, who invent excuses ranging from the children act (it doesn't need any special arrangements for children to participate in mixed age events) to insurance (covered by CTC already.

They even have a youth cup, which can never be awarded if they wont allow youths to participate, although given the average age of the committee, maybe they believe a youth to be anyone under 40.

What can I do to force them to comply with national guidelines on this? ....(My emphasis.)


I think it all depends on what result you really want. The CTC has a system for the investigation of complaints, so complain. I've not checked the guidelines you mention but if you are right, then presumably the CTC would take some sort of action. I fancy that long before that point the 'paranoid' committee and the panel of ride leaders will have resigned along the lines of what meic posted. Then there would be no CTC local members group rides for anybody to go on, and they'd operate under a different umbrella. You've ridden with the group i the past and I presume you have friends among their number. Won't one of them take your son 'under their wing?'

thelawnet
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby thelawnet » 9 Apr 2011, 10:13am

Cunobelin wrote:I never like reducing this type of thing to a personal level, but is there a "moral" aspect here.

If this had simply been a lazy parent who was trying to use the club as a "baby sitting service" which is so familiar to anyone who works with a youth group.

This appears to be a youngster who is keen to cycle and a parent who is keen to support this interest but due to disability unable to do so. We can offer help and support or not.

Morally I would have thought we should be helping this family. Providing the rides are suitable, and within his capacity then is there really a problem?


There is no 'we'. There are two or three individuals giving up their time to organise rides.

If you volunteer as a Scout leader you do so in the knowledge that you will be acting 'in loco parentis', albeit in the confines of a Scout hall.

A CTC ride leader does not reasonably anticipate acquiring such a responsibility, and may reasonably decline it.

Incidentally my son's Cub group arranged a 'hike' (walk along the pavement) to the fish and chips shop, which they then cancelled 'following a health + safety assessment', due to the risks associated with walking along the road. Not really the kind of thing CTC leaders think of I think? For instance one route my local group takes involves crossing a slip road for a fast dual carriageway. It's pretty scary, and I don't like crossing it myself - I certainly wouldn't want to have to guide anyone else over it.

gagagiste
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby gagagiste » 9 Apr 2011, 8:16pm

I find this thread very sad. In 1953, aged 13 I joined the local CTC section at Catford in South London. On runs the older members, many ex or serving members of the services, looked after me and my school mates, taught us how to ride in a bunch, offered advice, and by the time I was 16 I was leading section rides. We had hostel weekends, night rides, rode reliability trials and at 15 stoked one of the older members tandems - riding from London to the York Rally in two days. The only person who was asked not to ride was a lad who turned up without mudguards, he was told not to come on club runs until he had some! This is what I thought a "club" was supposed to be and do. I know the world has changed but how else are youngsters going to be encouraged and learn unless they ride with groups of like minded folks?

snibgo
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby snibgo » 9 Apr 2011, 8:35pm

gagagiste wrote:I find this thread very sad.

So do I. The world is a different place to how it was 20, 30, 40 years ago.

I organised a number of non-cycling events a couple of years ago. Some were in schools; others weren't. There is now a raft of legislation and social pressure that is concerned with child protection. Not "enabling kids to do things" but "protecting them from harm".

If I was a trained, qualified, CRB-checked and insured youth leader, I would have done things differently. As it was, for the non-school events, I had a simple rule: no unaccompanied children.

drossall
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby drossall » 9 Apr 2011, 8:38pm

I am a Scout leader, so yes, I take that on in the knowledge of what is expected of me. I very much want to see youngsters encouraged into cycling in the way that gagagiste describes. However, I have to respect those whose main focus was to find a nice route to ride with friends, as opposed to taking legal responsibility that was never expected before, either for adult or for junior participants.

thirdcrank
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Apr 2011, 9:03pm

thelawnet wrote: ... A CTC ride leader does not reasonably anticipate acquiring such a responsibility, and may reasonably decline it. ...


I linked above to the CTC's leaflet giving guidance to leaders. I wonder how many riders volunteering for this role have read it in any detail and how many assume it's a beginners' guide and not for somebody with their level of experience. In fact, if it were to be set out more formally with bullet points and if there were to be some independent check of delivery, rather than a display of ostrich tail feathers, the whole idea of an organised group ride might run into a bunker. With a mixed-ability group including one or two newcomers, one person could not possibly carry it out alone. Of course, something goes wrong only very rarely, but that's not the point. People are much more aware of their rights than ever before, and fair enough, but that brings with it other effects. At least, the CTC has insurance, which is not always the case with sports clubs. OTOH, all the insurance on earth is no protection against the media witch hunt.
===============================================================================
PS

I've now looked at the guidelines from the CTC desktop "Child participation policy - the CTC" which I assume are those referrred to in the OP. Here are what seem to me to be the relevant paragraphs:

CTC Council supports the introduction of young and new riders to our activities and strongly encourages local groups to make provision for introducing new riders as part of their activities (1) . This guide sets out a set of commonsense rules which should make it easier for local groups to cater for unaccompanied young people without fear of liability, or being in breach of rules or codes. Council also hopes that young people introduced to enjoyable cycling will make lifelong CTC supporters, and that they continue to ride on their own as soon as they are able. Local groups will be able to continue to welcome them under this guidance.

In many cases the young people are full members of either CTC or their local club or group and the specific reason for joining is to participate, so to not allow them on rides is a denial of the membership package they have purchased (2) . Where the current programme of a CTC local group does not provide for new cyclists and the less committed rider whether adults or young people groups are encouraged to consider at least an occasional programme to encourage them. (My emphasis)


(1) "Strongly encourages" implies to me that the ultimate decision lies with the local group.
(2) That's the exact point made by the OP. It does seem to me that it's something that should not be sold as part of that package if it cannot be guaranteed - see (1)

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gaz
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby gaz » 9 Apr 2011, 10:16pm

TC's been typing whilst I've been researching.
thirdcrank wrote:.... I wonder how many riders volunteering for this role have read it in any detail and how many assume it's a beginners' guide and not for somebody with their level of experience. ....


I think TC's hit a nail on the head. IIRC these procedures came along around 2003 accompanied by a whole host of changes to the DA/Section structures. These were largely promoted with phrases along the lines of "minor", "administrative", "formalising existing practice", "bringing us into the 21st Century" and "nothing to worry about".

As it happens my career as a ride leader stopped late 2001 but my name still found it's way on to the DA's list for a couple of years afterwards. I've since re-enroled and took a look through some of the current policies at that time. When something does go wrong it'll be alarming how many aren't being observed.

For anyone wishing to look:-

CTC Children and young persons participation policy.

Complaints Procedure Summary with a link to the full complaints procedure.

As for the OPs situation either raise a formal complaint through the Welfare Officer or your Councillor, or find another club.
He's got Bette Davis knees.

thelawnet
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby thelawnet » 10 Apr 2011, 9:01am

thirdcrank wrote:I've now looked at the guidelines from the CTC desktop "Child participation policy - the CTC" which I assume are those referrred to in the OP. Here are what seem to me to be the relevant paragraphs:

CTC Council supports the introduction of young and new riders to our activities and strongly encourages local groups to make provision for introducing new riders as part of their activities (1) . This guide sets out a set of commonsense rules which should make it easier for local groups to cater for unaccompanied young people without fear of liability, or being in breach of rules or codes. Council also hopes that young people introduced to enjoyable cycling will make lifelong CTC supporters, and that they continue to ride on their own as soon as they are able. Local groups will be able to continue to welcome them under this guidance.

In many cases the young people are full members of either CTC or their local club or group and the specific reason for joining is to participate, so to not allow them on rides is a denial of the membership package they have purchased (2) . Where the current programme of a CTC local group does not provide for new cyclists and the less committed rider whether adults or young people groups are encouraged to consider at least an occasional programme to encourage them. (My emphasis)


(1) "Strongly encourages" implies to me that the ultimate decision lies with the local group.
(2) That's the exact point made by the OP. It does seem to me that it's something that should not be sold as part of that package if it cannot be guaranteed - see (1)


The problem with this is that CTC membership isn't paying the true costs of the weekly rides. The CTC could by all means engage paid ride leaders, ending up with something like the sponsored and charged for http://www.goskyride.com/, but they don't, and if they did the membership dues would be far higher. The ultimate truth is if the individual volunteers don't like it, the CTC is in no position at all to 'grant them their membership package'.

Karen Sutton
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Karen Sutton » 10 Apr 2011, 3:45pm

The Parental Consent form which must be signed before children may take part states:

"All participants under the age of 18 must have a signed CTC parental consent form. The only exemption is where a young person having reached the age of 16 can prove that they are no longer living with their parents or guardian and are living as an independent adult. This needs to be proven by the supply of evidence such as a rent book or utility bill with the person’s current address in their name or a National Students Union membership card.
The minimum age for unaccompanied children on this event is 13. There is no lower age limit if accompanied by a responsible adult acting in loco parentis, but a signed parental consent form is still needed. Children aged 13 to 17 may participate unaccompanied if they have parental permission and the parental consent form is signed.
Parents or guardians must be aware
of the demands of this cycling event and that they alone make the decision about the ability of their child to complete the ride.
that the child may cycle with other adults and / or with children, but that there is also a likelihood of the child cycling on their own (for example with treasure hunt events).
that while CTC extends a welcome to cyclists of all ages and abilities, no special provision for children is provided on this event.
Arrangements to get to and from the ride are the sole responsibility of the parent or guardian".

So the age restrictions are actually National Policy. However any Member Group can have its own local rules. These rules should be ratified by National Council however. If they are not then it is possible that they will be challenged at some point, particularly if they contradict National Policy.

We had a 13 year old who took part in our rides some years ago. His parents were not cyclists so it was not a case of them using the group as 'baby sitters'. He rode competently with the group after the first few rides. There were one or two issues with his group riding skills as first, but that is often the case with adults who are new to group riding. Some of our ride leaders were not comfortable having him on the rides, but as there are many ride leaders in our group he chose the rides which were led by ride leaders who were happy to have him along. Our group usually uses pubs for lunch (they are generally the sort which welcome families). Obviously this boy could not order his own food and drink so one of the other members simply did this on his behalf. He rapidly became too strong and fast for our group and moved on to a racing type group for young people. We were happy that we had helped him acquire road skills and experience of riding in a group, which would benefit both him and any other group he rode with in the future.

Kevin Mayne
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Kevin Mayne » 11 Apr 2011, 9:07am

I think this should be in the Member Groups section of the board so if it moves suddenly go look for it there, its not a matter of public policy or campaigning.

Within the member groups section this is the sort of discussion we really welcome, because it is about using the collective experience of members to build policies that encourage people to ride bikes. A group is currently looking at our policies and if anyone wants to make suggestions about updates to the way we support particiption by young people please send me your thoughts.

However when things become difficult we have complaints procedures which I oversee on behalf of the Council, helping all parties through the process where possible. I will always tell you to start your complaint at the local level. In this case if you write to me I will then ask the Committee of the group involved to consider the complaint.

If you are unable to reach local resolution then the procedures allow you to escalate your complaint outside the group which again I will help you with.

However what I cannot do is discuss the progress of a complaint on the forum.

To contact me use kevin.mayne@ctc.org.uk

Kevin Mayne, Chief Executive.

Karen Sutton
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Karen Sutton » 11 Apr 2011, 11:13am

I agree with Kevin. this thread should be in the Member Groups area as it is specifically about Member Group policy.

gagagiste
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby gagagiste » 11 Apr 2011, 12:54pm

I am sorry I disagree, this tread should remain in Public Policy. If 'The Club' is unable/unwilling, via the Members Groups, to offer encouragement to young riders it is clearly a matter of Public Policy. Don't just sweep it under the carpet.