What do do about members group refusing to follow nat policy

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thirdcrank
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Apr 2011, 8:58am

drossall wrote:And therein lies the issue. It's certainly possible to argue that, at least on a fairly informal club ride, the ride leader is just suggesting a route. If he goes down a dual carriageway and I don't like it, it's up to me to drop out. Now OK, I may then be lost, or feel under pressure to stay with the group.

I accept your view of the law, but I understand those who think that it is asking them to take on more than is reasonable, without good cause.

I sometimes wonder if informal social activity is incompatible with a legal framework that is heading for someone always having to be responsible for what is going on :evil:


It seems to me that the situation here forms a triangle where the various bits of the law involved are looking for simple links. I can't draw the diagram on here so I'll just describe it. One side is formed by the relationship between the CTC and its members. This is in the form of a contract - the member pays and the club provides a service. Another is formed by the relationship between the CTC its volunteers. The CTC has been careful to avoid creating contracts here. (Eg, although RtoR reps signs an agreement, it's made clear that this is not a contract, just a sort of gentlemen's agreement.) The third side is formed - in what is causing the problem here - by the relationship between some members expecting a contractual or legally enfoceable service and the volunteers who value their own autonomy.

I don't think that the CTC is trying to impose a duty of care on ride leaders, but rather pointing out that the law imposes one whatever anybody might like. I fancy that if the idea of group rides had only just been invented, and if the rules were being written from scratch, there would be more (NVQ trained) personnel specified than a lone leader, especially when unaccompanied young people were likely to be involved. I'd also predict a sag wagon with a means of communicating with the leader and a manned base. I' don't think we are quite at the stage of motor cycle outriders but I'd check with a lawyer. The leader would have to be a fas enough rider to be able to cope with any eventuality, or perhaps he / she might be provided with a derny. We live in sad times.

Tonyf33
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Tonyf33 » 14 Apr 2011, 2:04pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Tonyf33 wrote:... Where does it say in the ctc terms/policies that a ride leader is legally responsible for anyone else? ....


If you read the pdf download I linked to above setting out the guidelines for ride leaders it says they have a "duty of care."

I'm not going to open it again for the umpteenth time to lift a quote but that's what it says at the outset. That is a lawyers' expression so it suggests to me a lawyer was consulted about the wording of the guidelines. Its significance is that to prove the tort of negligence - ie to get compo when somebody allegedly didn't carry out their responsibilities towards somebody else - it's necessary to demonstrate that they had a duty of care.

So a guideline isn't a legal requirement then, doesn't sound remotely close to it. Basically the 'duty of care' of the leader extends to all the other riders in the group, not just a younger less experienced rider? There is NO legal definition within that document at all as it is just a 'GUIDELINE'.

Sounds like a mountain is being created out of a molehill for what is after all a 'SAFE' activity, an aspect of cycling that is banged on about so often!
So what is your personal stance, should youngsters over the age of 13 actually be allowed to ride in ctc group rides or are you opposed on the basis that litigation may arise? At what age is it acceptable to be unaccompanied? Should the parents/guardian be made to sign a waiver form or should that apply to ALL the riders in the group too so any leader feels less pressure on them if they make a mistake in their 'duty of care'?

I wouldn't want the responsibility that you're making out that a ride leader should have to supply, however having led kids and young adults in other pursuits I don't feel it is a burden at all. In fact I'd say it makes it rewarding because those that are there participating want to be there of their own accord, not because someone forced them. You're able to impart knowledge & understanding to those who really want to learn & participate. Cycling within an older peer group on a leisure ride is about as safe as you can get IMO. I don't think the 'burden' that a ride leader would be under for taking 'duty of care' is that big a deal.
That's my opinion of course.

Karen Sutton
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Karen Sutton » 14 Apr 2011, 3:14pm

Tonyf33 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
Tonyf33 wrote:So a guideline isn't a legal requirement then, doesn't sound remotely close to it. Basically the 'duty of care' of the leader extends to all the other riders in the group, not just a younger less experienced rider? There is NO legal definition within that document at all as it is just a 'GUIDELINE'.

Sounds like a mountain is being created out of a molehill for what is after all a 'SAFE' activity, an aspect of cycling that is banged on about so often!
So what is your personal stance, should youngsters over the age of 13 actually be allowed to ride in ctc group rides or are you opposed on the basis that litigation may arise? At what age is it acceptable to be unaccompanied? Should the parents/guardian be made to sign a waiver form or should that apply to ALL the riders in the group too so any leader feels less pressure on them if they make a mistake in their 'duty of care'?

I wouldn't want the responsibility that you're making out that a ride leader should have to supply, however having led kids and young adults in other pursuits I don't feel it is a burden at all. In fact I'd say it makes it rewarding because those that are there participating want to be there of their own accord, not because someone forced them. You're able to impart knowledge & understanding to those who really want to learn & participate. Cycling within an older peer group on a leisure ride is about as safe as you can get IMO. I don't think the 'burden' that a ride leader would be under for taking 'duty of care' is that big a deal.
That's my opinion of course.


I can't speak for others but my personal stance,( since you are asking), is that it should be left to the Ride Leader's discretion as to whether they accept unaccompanied children under 14 on their rides. In our Group we had a family ride with us some time ago. They had twins who were 13. These twins were a liability. Absolutely a danger to the rest of the riders. You see, it is not just the safety of the unaccompanied children which we must consider, but also the safety of the other riders in the Group.

If a ride is specifically aimed at families then the leader may expect to have youngsters riding their own bikes. They may constitute a danger to everyone on the ride if they have no road skills. However on a family ride the leader would probably be prepared to accept this and allow for it by selecting a route which is lightly trafficked or uses a some traffic free trails. A leader on a ride which uses some busy roads may not be prepared to accept young unaccompanied riders. That should remain their prerogative.

You ask at what age is it acceptable for a child to be unaccompanied. The form a parent signs to give permission for a child to ride says they must be at least 14 to ride unaccompanied. It is possible that someone younger than this might be OK; but you have to draw a line somewhere. 14 is obviously the age felt appropriate by the people who selected that age (I understand it was Member Group Ride Leaders and CTC staff who devised the original form years ago). The form has been updated to reduce it to A5 size recently, but the wording was hardly altered. The guidelines for ride leaders was written by Kevin and myself with input from legal professionals.

Let us imagine that a Ride Leader was directed to accept a child of 13 on a ride, and then a parent asked at some point for their 12 year old to be allowed to join a ride unaccompanied, would he Ride Leader be allowed to refuse, or would taking the 13 year old have set a precedent?

If the OP feels that the Group in question here is being obstructive unecessarily they should make a formal complaint to Kevin. The matter can then be raised directly with the Group. It is totally pointless discussing it here and hoping for something to be done about it.

thirdcrank
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Apr 2011, 6:17pm

Tontf33

All I'm trying to do is to highlight the info and what I think it means. I cannot really follow your post. I think it's imprortant to understand that a binding contract can be made without anybody signing anything or even any sort of active agreement. It's also possible to assume certain responsibilities unless you make it clear you are not doing so. That's why so many private car parks have signs up of the "Parking at owners risk" type. I'm just suggesting that the CTC's legal advisors have told them that a ride leader is accepting a duty of care towards participants. I don't think I can make that much clearer.

JohnW
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby JohnW » 6 Jun 2012, 2:54pm

I am aware that this is an old thread, but I've only just read it. I was a bit concerned myself about the issues, and I've discussed the matter with more knowledgable members than myself, of our section committee.

I asked CTC for details, and the following correspondence is what I received. It concerns me that child protection seems to be considered part of the welfare officer's role at section committee level. It also concerns me that even the CTC's Welfare Officer does not appear to have full and proper guidelines available to him.

Matters of child protection can range, in this day and age, from basic responsible common sense - of the kind normally exercised in the days when the CTC was "This great family of ours" to extremely onerous responsibilities, for which training is necessary and appropriate.

Anyone following this thread may like to see the correspondence between myself and the welfare Officer - I will keep the thread posted.

The thing is, that if senior officers at HQ are not given better guidlines, that local runs leaders/secretarys can't be blamed if everything is not entirely clear to them, and they err on the side of caution.


.......................................................................................

Thank you for your reply XXXX.

My computer doesn't open the three links shown because the protection system doesn't deem it safe to do so. I normally don't have a problem.

I have a copy of the (Very, very) brief "CTC Welfare Officer Guidelines". This refers to the complaints procedure, of which I also have a copy.

I have also printed off "CTC National Council (Cycling Development Committee). Children and Young Persons Participation Policy - Recreational Cycling. Version 1.0 July 2003

You tell me that you cannot find the child policies yourself, which of course doesn't help.

You suggest that the Welfare Officer's role subsumes child protection matters, which is potentially very onerous indeed. If there are no CTC guidelines then it isn't surprising that some sections apparently won't accept junior riders, even though they may historically have junior cups!

So far, as welfare officer for our section (CTC Calderdale) and our DA (CTC West Yorkshire DA) I have involved myself in hospital visiting and get well soon cards - and one incident involving an Audax issue but which is confidential.

If it is expected that Welfare Officers should get involved in child protection issues, then the rules need to be comprehensive, available, produced by some learned body or other, and officers need to be very well trained and fully indemnified by the CTC. To make the sweeping statement that we are responsible for Child Protection matters, and all that could potentially involve, is not acceptable for amateurs.

Our next section committee meeting is on 20th June, and I'd like to be able to report to them.

Regards,

John WXXXX.

......................................................................................
From: XXXX
Sent: 06 June 2012 10:57
To: 'John WXXXX'

Hi John

XXXX forwarded your email to me.

I am the CTC welfare officer, unfortunately we do not have a JD for this role, though it might now be appropriate to create one.

The welfare officer is really the port of call for the following:

child protection, unless there is a separate CP officer role
if any discrimination issues occur

You need to be available to listen to any queries on the above subjects. All members need to know your details and be able to contact you at any time.

As far as child procedures are concerned, we do have them, (for all procedure related queries contact Julie Rand here).
http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Resourc ... 281%29.doc has a small descriptu=ion of the role of the welfare officer.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Go_Biki ... vities.doc about diversity.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Go_Biki ... rtForm.doc welfare officer guidelines

hmm, I cannot find the child policies, but basically:

under 14 can only come with an adult accompanying

14 to 16 (inc) with a consent form and support from the ride leader

16 plus, support from the ride leader.

In all cases the member group needs to be aware of this and what is happening. The committee must take a controlling role and inform all members that the discussion must happen before hand and the ride leader must be aware and willing.

I hope that is clear.

Please feel free to email me with any more queries.

Best regards

XXXX
XXXX
Senior Cycle Training Officer
CTC the national cyclists' organisation
01483 238330

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gaz
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby gaz » 6 Jun 2012, 7:37pm

Thanks for trying to get some answers John, it's a shame that they seem to be the wrong ones.

Senior Cycle Training Officer wrote:...hmm, I cannot find the child policies...

:roll:
Children and Young Persons Participation Policy

It's rather worrying that National Office couldn't find it because all of the ages given in the above advice appear to be wrong.

3. CTC Participation Rules for all activities.

All participants under 18 must have signed a CTC parental consent form. The only exemption is where a young person having reached the age of 16 can prove that they are no longer living with parents or guardian and are de-facto living as independent adults.




6. CTC child participation rules for activities open to all ages.

National council has set the minimum age for unaccompanied children as 13 on open age CTC rides and events. There is no lower age limit if accompanied by a responsible adult acting in loco parentis, but a parental consent form is still needed.

Children aged from 13 to 17 may participate unaccompanied if they have parental permission to take part in an open activity and the parent understands there are no special child procedures laid on.



Senior Cycle Training Officer wrote:...I hope that is clear....

Clear as mud.
He's got Bette Davis knees.

Karen Sutton
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Karen Sutton » 7 Jun 2012, 9:25am

First of all Child Protection law applies to all those under the age of 18 years. This is why all those under 18 must have written parental consent.

Having looked at the new CTC website I am struggling to find the Member Group resources section and had to resort to Googling for documents. If anyone knows where the Local Group resources section is on the new website that would be very helpful.

If the Welfare Officer is responsible for CP issues this should be made extremely clear to all CTC Groups. It is not something that can be handed to someone after they have taken on the role. It is a role which requires at least basic training.

CTC Groups are able to have "local rules" which are not CTC policy but which may be deemed necessary by a group. The old rules said that CTC Council should approve local rules but I don't know of any groups who have referred their local rules for approval.

Of interest may be the statement on this subject from the Volunteer Registration form. This form is used by Groups to register their volunteers for the Organisers' Liability Insurance. This says

"Child Protection. If an activity involves unaccompanied children then it must conform with CTC’s child protection policies. It will also be necessary for the volunteer to complete a separate self declaration form. If an applicant has no experience of working with children, training is strongly recommended. If there are any concerns over the information supplied on the form advice should be sought from CTC National Child Protection Officer."


I did find this link by googling. http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Trainin ... 03Ver1.doc

The fact that all the CTC documents relating to this type of thing date back to the introduction of the Organiser's Liability Insurance cover is not reassuring. Nor is the response from the un named member of staff quoted above.

Joolz
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Joolz » 7 Jun 2012, 5:42pm

All CTC's current guidelines and policies for Member Groups can be found on our new website here: http://beta.ctc.org.uk/resources/resources-for-running-events-or-rides/these-resources-can-help-redtape-involved-in-running.

I have recently added the joint BC/CTC Policy and Procedures for the Protection of Children and Young Adults. This is the policy that we use to run CTC activities that involve children and acts as guidance for CTC Member Groups.

Note that all CTC Member Group policies and guidance, including our Child Participation Policy, are currently being reviewed by the Member Group Steering Group - the next meeting will take place in London in July.

Any comments or suggestions for improvements to these policies can be sent to me, Julie Rand, Member Group Coordinator groups@ctc.org.uk.

Julie

Karen Sutton
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Karen Sutton » 7 Jun 2012, 9:46pm

Joolz wrote:All CTC's current guidelines and policies for Member Groups can be found on our new website here: http://beta.ctc.org.uk/resources/resources-for-running-events-or-rides/these-resources-can-help-redtape-involved-in-running.

I have recently added the joint BC/CTC Policy and Procedures for the Protection of Children and Young Adults. This is the policy that we use to run CTC activities that involve children and acts as guidance for CTC Member Groups.

Note that all CTC Member Group policies and guidance, including our Child Participation Policy, are currently being reviewed by the Member Group Steering Group - the next meeting will take place in London in July.

Any comments or suggestions for improvements to these policies can be sent to me, Julie Rand, Member Group Coordinator groups@ctc.org.uk.

Julie


Thank you Julie. Can you outline the route to those resources from the home page of the new website please, as it is not very obvious?

Joolz
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Joolz » 8 Jun 2012, 9:16am

They are in Resources - lower right hand corner of Home Page under Running Events or Rides.

JohnW
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby JohnW » 8 Jun 2012, 7:41pm

Joolz wrote:They are in Resources - lower right hand corner of Home Page under Running Events or Rides.


How would we know that? When were they put there?

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gaz
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby gaz » 8 Jun 2012, 8:06pm

I believe the new website was launched less than a month ago, and in some senses it is still a work in progress. It will take us all a little while to begin to find our way around.

On the old website I would have used the search engine, in this case putting "Child Participation" into the new search engine takes you to the relevant "Resources" page.

It's a refreshing change that National Office staff are looking at this section of the forum on an official basis in an effort to help with queries, thank you Joolz.
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JohnW
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby JohnW » 8 Jun 2012, 11:11pm

From the predecessors to the sites recommended by joolz I have previously printed off the (very, very) brief "CTC Welfare Officer Guidelines". This refers to the complaints procedure, of which I also have a copy. This hasn't changed for over three years to my knowledge, and mentions nothing about Child Protection Issues.

I have also printed off "CTC National Council (Cycling Development Committee). Children and Young Persons Participation Policy - Recreational Cycling. Version 1.0 July 2003. This is dated 2003, so has not been updated. This is OK as far as it goes, but I can understand confusion in some peoples' minds about age complications.

From the predecessors to the sites recommended by joolz I have previously printed off the (very, very) brief "CTC Welfare Officer Guidelines". This refers to the complaints procedure, of which I also have a copy. This hasn't changed for over three years to my knowledge, and mentions nothing about Child Protection Issues.

I have also printed off "CTC National Council (Cycling Development Committee). Children and Young Persons Participation Policy - Recreational Cycling. Version 1.0 July 2003. This is dated 2003, so has not been updated. This is OK as far as it goes, but I can understand confusion in some peoples' minds about age complications and issues.

I have also printed out a 14 page document on "Policy and proceedures......in relation to children and vulnerable adults" (or something like that). This is quite a detailed and possibly quite comprehensive document, but again dated 2003. This document does refer to Welfare Officers. I have not seen this document before - it's never been referred to inwhat little I have found on the web-site relating to Welfare Officers, and certainly isn't referred to in the (very, very) brief "CTC Welfare Officer Guidelines" .

The idea of the Welfare Officer being responsible for child protection issues has come as a surprise to me

Are there any other Welfare Officers out there, reading this? - do they know for certain whether child protection is included in their remit? - have they any comment to make?

Edwards
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Edwards » 9 Jun 2012, 7:17am

I find it strange that there has been no mention of Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) checks. I am not up to date on the current situation but this does apply to volunteers working for charities who have regular contact with non relatives children.

It would appear to me that the Child Protection policy is out of date and in places misleading as the ages quoted do not match up with the law.

National Guidelines are not much use, if out of date and do not reflect the current legal position that has partly been caused by the conversion to a charity.
Keith Edwards
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Karen Sutton
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Re: What do do about members group refusing to follow nat po

Postby Karen Sutton » 9 Jun 2012, 1:46pm

I was a Welfare Officer until last Autumn. There was no mention in any way of Welfare Officers having anything to do with Child Protection. There are only "Welfare Officer Guidelines to refer to for anything covering this role. The guidelines are not a specific document in its own right, but actually part of the Incident Report Form. It can be found here:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4972

This seems to be the only reference to this role and does not mention Child Protection. As I said, if CTC has decided that Child Protection issues should be covered as part of the Welfare Officer role then all Groups should have been informed directly about this.With regard to CRB checks, these are only necessary if an event or group is organised specifically for children.