Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

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Kevin Mayne
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Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Kevin Mayne » 10 Jul 2011, 4:56pm

Member Group Consultations 2011
CTC Council has invited representatives of Member Groups to form a task group to look at current and future policies that relate to the running of our groups. To inform the work of those groups we are asking your opinion about some current topics.

We have set up this discussion area about these issues on the CTC Forum because we expect there to be questions and comments that cannot be collected via a survey or to allow members to chat about the issues raised.

The Member Groups’ Forum can be found here.
viewforum.php?f=17

To make specific enquiries please email Julie Rand on groups@ctc.org.uk

All surveys close on 31st July 2011.

Survey 3 is for Ride Leaders.
CTC Council would like to know your opinion about who you would like to welcome on your rides. Opinions differ as to whether CTC rides should be open to non members or members of affiliated groups. Some people believe our rides should be open to everyone. Some believe our rides are a benefit that comes with membership. What do you think?

It should take about 5 minutes to complete this consultation.

Before completing the survey please read the background here
http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Resources/CTC_Member_Groups_ride_leader_participation_survey.doc

To access the survey click here. http://survey.ctc.org.uk/index.php?sid=92851&lang=en
Last edited by Graham on 15 Dec 2011, 7:26am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Important post, so stickiness seems appropriate.

Karen Sutton
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Karen Sutton » 10 Jul 2011, 7:28pm

I have responded to this survey by sending the following to CTC:


As a registered ride leader I would like to offer the following response to the survey regarding whether CTC rides should be open to all.

Ride Leaders do not like having to tell new participants that they can take part in 5 rides and then must join CTC if they wish to continue. This is one reason why organisers have problems getting ride leaders to request completion of the Guest rider forms. In my opinion these forms are invaluable. They give the leader emergency contact details for the rider and they allow follow up by the group facilitating the sending of information about future events.

So allowing the rides to be open to everybody would remove the need for these forms. This may please some ride leaders but would be a retrograde step in my view. The forms were greatly simplified to encourage their use. If I was new to a cycling group I would expect someone to ask for my details; in fact I would be surprised and perhaps slightly concerned if nobody wanted any information from me.

There are also some Ride Leaders who make no effort to involve new people. These forms provide a reason for them to chat with a new rider, find out something about them, guage their level of experience, assess whether they are likely to have difficulties on the ride. Whilst I understand that some organisers/ride leader would like to make everything more informal, cut bureaucracy, etc. I feel there is a danger in going too far with simplifying things. We can be welcoming to new people without simply removing all rules. I also think that there is a sense of belonging, of ownership in being a member. Membership is not just about third party insurance. If too many benefits are offered to all rather than just members there are many who would not bother joining at all. Currently I could take out British Cycling Ride Membership for my insurance needs but then would be unable to go on local CTC rides. If you allow CTC Group rides to be open to all there would be no incentive to stay a member.

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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jul 2011, 12:10am

A few years ago, I tried a number of clubs and organisations when I was seeking a group/club to join for club runs and the like.

All of them (including clubs affiliated with other organisations and local clubs) told me that I was welcome to join them for a few rides, but if I wanted to continue riding with them, they would like me to join. The maximum number of non-member rides permitted varied from 2 to 5. However, most were friendly, and I suspect that the rule was/is a flexible one in most cases.

Only one club didn't collect any sort of details from me prior to leaving. I did go on 4 club runs with them, even though they initially told me I should join after 2 club runs. I didn't join them, and they never said anything, nor asked for a donation, but they also didn't keep any records of who was in attendance.

It is important to ask for emergency contact details before setting out. It is appropriate that someone who wants to participate regularly in club runs and events should join.

However, I also think that the CTC is missing a trick in not having some mechanism by which regular rides can be organised under the auspices of the CTC without requiring membership. There seems to be a reasonable demand in my area for regular rides for people who aren't necessarily keen cyclists. Perhaps there could or should be a policy permitting (or encouraging?) 'open' rides that are designed to promote cycling and get potential new members along?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Simon L6
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Simon L6 » 11 Jul 2011, 9:22am

Vorpal wrote:It is important to ask for emergency contact details before setting out.
it's a bike ride - not an expedition up the Orinoco!


Vorpal wrote:However, I also think that the CTC is missing a trick in not having some mechanism by which regular rides can be organised under the auspices of the CTC without requiring membership. There seems to be a reasonable demand in my area for regular rides for people who aren't necessarily keen cyclists. Perhaps there could or should be a policy permitting (or encouraging?) 'open' rides that are designed to promote cycling and get potential new members along?
the mechanism exists - you run it as an event

This exercise is in the great CTC tradition. The first thought to occur is 'let's have a rule'. The first thought that should have occured is 'let's ask ourselves what we want, share experiences, and spread knowledge around'.

And, that, dear peeps, is where the problem lies. Put it another way. Instead of asking 'who do we keep out?' we might be asking 'how do we get people along?' To which question, by the way, I know some of the answers.

Karen Sutton
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Karen Sutton » 11 Jul 2011, 11:14am

Simon L6 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:It is important to ask for emergency contact details before setting out.

it's a bike ride - not an expedition up the Orinoco!p


I agree Simon. However accidents do happen. Only two days ago a rider crashed on one of our group rides. It was a half day ride organised to encourage new riders. His handlebar stem snapped as he was descending quite fast. An ambulance was required to take him to hospital for treatment. Fortunately the ride leader is one of those who asks new people to complete a guest rider form so she had contact details. Of course he may have been carrying ID. But not everyone does.

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Si
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Si » 11 Jul 2011, 11:30am

My 2p......

Most of my co-MG members are mainly members because of the MG rather than because of the benefits that the National face of the CTC offers (although these are appreciated too). Thus it would be unfair to allow unlimited non-CTC members to ride with us while the CTC members feel that they have to fork out a not inconsiderable sum to subsidise them*. But, on the other hand, we don't want to appear to be a closed shop / old boys' club that doesn't welcome new members so we should make every reasonable effort to get new people along to join us.

So, I would vote for unlimited attendance by non-CTC members BUT they have to pay a £1 (or some other low but not infinitesimal amount) on each ride - such that the paid up members don't feel that they are being treated unfairly, and the non-paid up members get some incentive to join the CTC.


*yes, I know it's not this straight forward but that's the feeling that many get: "I pay £40 a year to ride with this group, but Fred over there just turns up and rides without paying....how is that fair?"

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Simon L6
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Simon L6 » 11 Jul 2011, 11:48am

I think, Si, you've answered your own question. People aren't paying £37 for the rides, they're paying £37 to be full members of the CTC. Which means that the activities of the MG, which cost very little, are distinct from the activities of the CTC.

But, once again, that's beside the point. The CTC is obsessed with rules. It's time it started thinking about what works.

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Si
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Si » 11 Jul 2011, 12:01pm

Simon L6 wrote:I think, Si, you've answered your own question. People aren't paying £37 for the rides, they're paying £37 to be full members of the CTC. Which means that the activities of the MG, which cost very little, are distinct from the activities of the CTC.



I feel that that argument is a little irrelevant (even if it's technically true as I admitted above) when it comes to comparing what you've paid to be on this ride compared to what the bloke or lass riding next to you has. It's about the perception of immediate benefits, and about getting people to join the CTC (I think that most of us still do want more people to join?). If someone rides with the MG every week (many of my lot ride several times a week), then at a £1 a pop it's cheaper for them to be a full member. But if they just ride now and then, a £1 would seem reasonable (is it not £1 that you pay on an audax to cover insurance?). And likewise, for someone wanting to sample the delights of a MG, having a few rides at a £1 a go would seem reasonable.

And, of course, these extra £1s are going to be helpful to any MG collecting them. As would a bigger cut of the £37 annual sub that each member of the MG pays to HO.

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Simon L6
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Simon L6 » 11 Jul 2011, 12:10pm

in five years I got maybe 200 people to join the CTC as full members

in under five months I've got 200 people to join as affiliated members - and a proportion of those are transferring from full to affiliated. Membership of The Fridays costs a quid - although I'm going to raise it to two quid next year.

There are about 1000 FNRttCers, and, while some will come out ten or twelve times a year, many will make it just once a year.

That, Si, is the difficulty. The several rides a week bunch are small in number - most people fit rides around limited opportunity and the weather. Paying £37 (soon to rise to £39) for the prospect of a few rides a year is not exactly attractive. Paying £13 is more attractive.

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Si
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Si » 11 Jul 2011, 12:51pm

Paying £37 (soon to rise to £39) for the prospect of a few rides a year is not exactly attractive. Paying £13 is more attractive.


But paying nothing is even more attractive.

Karen Sutton
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Karen Sutton » 11 Jul 2011, 12:55pm

Unrelated to Si and Simon's debate; I wonder how this all fits in with the new CTC Charity. Soon there will no longer be a "Club" to join. So we will pay to be supporters of a Charity instead like those who subscribe to Sustrans perhaps?

How will CTC be able to justify charging people to take part in charity activities? Will CTC have to provide activities free of charge once it is a charity?

If the allocation grant is based on the number of Members in a Group area this allocation will go down if people can go on Group rides without joining and they opt out.

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Simon L6
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Simon L6 » 11 Jul 2011, 1:04pm

Si wrote:
Paying £37 (soon to rise to £39) for the prospect of a few rides a year is not exactly attractive. Paying £13 is more attractive.


But paying nothing is even more attractive.

they don't get the option. But, then again, the thirteen quid is for a readily definable benefits - 3rd party insurance, discounts at shops, cycle clips for the £12 and up to thirteen rides for a quid. Since I spent long hours trying to work out where the CTC subs went and, despite being given the best figures the CTC could come up with, drew a blank, I never quite managed to explain what people got for their £37.

Once again - this is a bit beside the point. Do Rides Leaders want more people on their rides, and, if so, what might they do about it? Forget rules, and start thinking and sharing the positives.

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Si
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Si » 11 Jul 2011, 5:12pm

your lot might not get the option but I'mtalking about MGs generally and the RoF or other past ways of dealling with non-members.

what we want as far as I'm concerned is to get more people on rides without upsetting those that already come out with us.

Someone who is not a CTC member will probably not want to pay the £40 to join until they are really sure that they want to continue with us. Likewise, someone who can only make it out occasionally might not want to pay the £40 but might still want to come out with us now and then. By having the option of charging occasional riders/non-members a £1 a go we get to put some money towards insurance/MG costs while those that are full members don't feel like they've been diddled. Everyone's a winner as it opens MG rides up to more people and brings in a small amount of money to pay MG expenses, and, if all goes well, it ought to prompt some of the £1 riders to graduate to full membership eventually (but they are not forced to do this if they don't want to - unlike with the RoF).

If, on the other hand, someone who is not a member decides to pay the £40 for membership to acquire the general, rather than MG, CTC benefits, there is still no problem because they can ride with an MG without further hoop jumping or payment.

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gaz
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby gaz » 11 Jul 2011, 9:35pm

Karen Sutton wrote:Will CTC have to provide activities free of charge once it is a charity?


I can't imagine that they would have to. YHA (Charity) don't provide free beds for the night to either members or non-members (supporters/non-supporters if you prefer), they charge for temporary membership and structure the fee scale to make full membership attractive to all but the most casual users.

Si wrote:By having the option of charging occasional riders/non-members a £1 a go we get to put some money towards insurance/MG costs while those that are full members don't feel like they've been diddled.


The problem I see is that asking ride leaders to formally collect payments from non-members introduces added burdens of administration:-

e.g. Do they need to get a Gift Aid declaration? Will they issue receipts for cash collected? Does the cash go the LMG or National Office? How will they pass the cash on? In what timescale? Who is liable if the cash is lost?

My head hurts already.
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Karen Sutton
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Re: Survey for Ride Leaders about non-member rides

Postby Karen Sutton » 11 Jul 2011, 9:57pm

gaz wrote:
Karen Sutton wrote:Will CTC have to provide activities free of charge once it is a charity?


I can't imagine that they would have to. YHA (Charity) don't provide free beds for the night to either members or non-members (supporters/non-supporters if you prefer), they charge for temporary membership and structure the fee scale to make full membership attractive to all but the most casual users.

Si wrote:By having the option of charging occasional riders/non-members a £1 a go we get to put some money towards insurance/MG costs while those that are full members don't feel like they've been diddled.


The problem I see is that asking ride leaders to formally collect payments from non-members introduces added burdens of administration:-

e.g. Do they need to get a Gift Aid declaration? Will they issue receipts for cash collected? Does the cash go the LMG or National Office? How will they pass the cash on? In what timescale? Who is liable if the cash is lost?

My head hurts already.


I agree. I don't see that working. Our MG has numerous ride leaders. They are not going to want the added task of collecting cash. About 10 years or so ago our MG used to do this. There was also a small charge for a printed runs list. This was pre website days. The Group was a Section of a DA and got no funding from either CTC or the DA. It was then decided that instead of making small charges for rides or for runs lists we would ask the members for an annual donation of around £5.00 per household. This was allowed by CTC as long as we specified what the money was used for and made the annual accounts available to the members. Now the Group is independent and gets the allocation grant from CTC. Unfortunately it does not cover the running costs of the Group so the members still make an annual donation.