Enigma Bikes

[Jdsk]

Your statutory rights are not limited by a vendor's warranty.

Have you a link to some statutory rights that would apply to ten year old goods?

AIUI the first fault was within five years of purchase, and the second within five years of the repair work.

In England the statutory rights are contained in the Consumer Rights Act (2015). This replaced the Sale of Goods Act which was in place at the time of the original purchase.

I'd take professional advice on the time windows for claiming if I were pursuing this.

Jonathan

[PH]

In England the statutory rights are contained in the Consumer Rights Act (2015). This replaced the Sale of Goods Act which was in place at the time of the original purchase.

I'd take professional advice on the time windows for claiming if I were pursuing this.

Jonathan

The Consumer Rights Act (2015) covers you for up to six years from date of purchase. It doesn't require professional advice to read it.

[slowster]

It would be interesting to see what an expert metallurgist or similar would make of those cracks, i.e. what exactly were the causes.

[philvantwo]

Who's going to pay for that?

[Bonefishblues]

It would be interesting to see what an expert metallurgist or similar would make of those cracks, i.e. what exactly were the causes.

Sadly our resident expert is currently indisposed

[Hellhound]

Absolutely appalling customer service from @Enigma bikes.I don't think it takes an expert to see that this is material failure.I have been looking at having a steel framed bike built by a small niche company.I narrowed it down to two but am put off regarding frame warranties.One of the companies is having a funding round soon which has also set alarm bells ringing regarding possible longevity issues.

Hopefully @Enigma bikes will have a change of heart now that this is in the public domain.Fingers crossed.

[Vorpal]

It would be interesting to see what an expert metallurgist or similar would make of those cracks, i.e. what exactly were the causes.

I'm not a metallurgist, but I deal with failures in metal on a regular basis, and it looks like a fatigue failure. The problem with that is that the 'root cause' of such a failure can be a design issue, a quality issue, use outside of design, or abuse. Determining more than that would require having the frame in hand, and the possibility to do some destructive testing. Then, I could determine if the quality of the tubing was suitable, if the welds were correct, etc. The number of failures and from relatively early in life would suggest either quality issues with welding or materials, or abuse.

That said, I have some experience with titanium... (disclaimer: I don't know anything about Enigma or their processes & I am not suggesting that the welds are necessarily a problem)... titanium requires considerably more care to weld than steel because it is what's known as a reactive metal. At room temperature, it reacts with oxygen. The titanium dioxide that forms must be removed prior to welding because it melts at a much higher temperature, which substantially reduces weld integrity. In addition, when heated, titanium reacts more with oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen and carbon to form oxides that embrittle the weldment (or heat affected zone). Everything within the heat-affected zone (the part that gets hot from welding) must be shielded from the atmosphere until the temperature drops below the temperature at which it is highly reactive.

That means, if a shielding gas such as argon isn't used, or impurities are introduced in the process, the titanium will react with oxygen from the atmosphere. This is the first place I look in examining premature failure issues with welded titanium. It is more difficult to control than welding steel, and in my experience somewhat more likely to produce quality issues.

Repairing titanium is even more likely to produce this sort of failure, and while a factory repair under the same stringent process controls should be of similar quality to the original, a repair in a bike shop is unlikely to be.

edit: NB, that's not to say that titanium isn't a good frame material; it is, after all heavily used in aerospace, but it does require better process controls than steel

edited again for clarity & disclaimer

[mattheus]

The above (controlling Argon flow etc etc ) is why I'm wary of cheap Ti frames. [I've had Airborne and Dynatech, both 2nd hand, both - touch wood - without any fatigue problems to date].

If I buy an expensive one, which then fails after 5 years / 40,000km, and I don't get a warranty payout (for a myriad of reasons), then I'll accept that as a small cost in my lifetime of cycling. Of course I'll be out for blood initially ...

[PH]

Absolutely appalling customer service from @Enigma bikes

Compared to who? Ribble, Kinesis, Burls, Spa are among those who don't offer more than a ten year warranty on Ti frames and is some cases considerably less.

Hopefully @Enigma bikes will have a change of heart now that this is in the public domain.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the intention, might work, but what's to be gained? Another poor repair?

[PH]

that's not to say that titanium isn't a good frame material; it is, after all heavily used in aerospace, but it does require better process controls than steel

Enigma have made a thing about their higher end custom frames being UK made, in their small workshop rather than a big Far Eastern factory. I know that appeals to some, but it may be the case that volume producers are better equipped and experienced.
I've had a Ti frame crack, of course I'd rather it hadn't, it was a great frame for the nine years it lasted. I replaced it with an equally nice steel frame which is likely to last longer.

[Tiberius]

Absolutely appalling customer service from @Enigma bikes

Compared to who? Ribble, Kinesis, Burls, Spa are among those who don't offer more than a ten year warranty on Ti frames and is some cases considerably less.

Well, compare to Van Nicholas - 25 years.

[PH]

Well, compare to Van Nicholas - 25 years.

According to their website "25 years on average" though I'm not sure what that means.
But yes that's a generous offer, and I know of examples of them honouring it, only Sabbath seem to offer better, or at least did under their original owners. It's hard not to see those as exceptions rather than the norm, which then makes the criticism singling out Enigma seem unjust.

[modernretrogrouch]

On one hand, I can see why the OP is annoyed. Call me naive, but a lifetime warranty means just that, IMO. It's also why I'd never offer one, but that's a separate issue.

On the other, the £600 new frame offer from Enigma isn't unreasonable and I'd probably have taken it, and either had a new steel frame, or a stock geometry ti which I'd have then flogged to fund a replacement.

What puts me off Enigma here is not the refusal of the warranty claim now but the repeated, historical pattern of cheaping out in the OP's case. One can't help but think if they'd just replaced the frame when it first cracked, everyone would now be happier.

[Hellhound]

Absolutely appalling customer service from @Enigma bikes

Compared to who? Ribble, Kinesis, Burls, Spa are among those who don't offer more than a ten year warranty on Ti frames and is some cases considerably less.

Well if you look at the first crack it's not obvious to the naked eye whether it's a stress crack or just plain old manufacturing defect.So Enigma chose to repair it as it was in the original warranty time line.Four years later there's a much worse fail that appears to be around the area of the first repair.This is still in the original warranty.You can understand Enigma trying to repair in the first instance but the later cracks should have resulted in replacement.
That's just how I would expect the matter to be dealt with.Obviously manufacturers will try to push warranty get out clauses to the limit but in some cases they really should just hold their hands up and admit they got it wrong.
I believe this is one of those cases.

[sussex cyclist]

It would be interesting to see what an expert metallurgist or similar would make of those cracks, i.e. what exactly were the causes.

I would love to know too.

...the £600 new frame offer from Enigma isn't unreasonable and I'd probably have taken it, and either had a new steel frame, or a stock geometry ti which I'd have then flogged to fund a replacement.

This has also been suggested elsewhere. Enigma certainly seemed to think they were being fair. Given the realities of sourcing a replacement, I would almost be tempted, despite what I feel to be the iniquity of the request, but I cannot seriously entertain the offer for reasons which are probably clear.

...Obviously manufacturers will try to push warranty get out clauses to the limit but in some cases they really should just hold their hands up and admit they got it wrong.
I believe this is one of those cases.

It's hard to overstate how dreamy this bike was to me, and how much I would have preferred to be able to continue to patronise the company. It is probably in the realm of fantasy to think that is possible now, but if you are still reading this, Enigma, I'm willing to give it another go if you are.

My counter-offer is this: replace the frame nil charge (and in a reasonable amount of time, please, unlike what happened with this poor chap. Your standard 3 months would be fine, as I don't have high hopes for the weather this summer anyway.) I will then accept the new frame on your now standard 10 year warranty, even though that would be a step down for me.

Alexander Pope, whose birthday was just the other day, said that to err is human, to forgive, divine. We all make mistakes. I, for one, am capable of forgiveness.