Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Please be fair and thoughtful in your opinions. No rants please.
crushed
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by crushed »

wirral_cyclist wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 9:40pm A very poor retailer (of car parts?) should never have sold you that size really.
I can see on the original photo there is very little room between the seat and top tube but top tube is a bit lower, in the mounted photo you can nearly stand over the saddle so therefore should be able to stand over the top tube, so in essence I think it is rideable. But that seat is too low to ride, you need your leg at six o'clock to be just straight using your heel, then you are in ideal position to ride so as not to damage your knees.
Penny farthings don't allow people to stand over but they are ridden with just a bit of practice - and that's what you need practice (not penny farthing).
I stopped riding because I can't manage this. Almost hit by car
IMG-0569.jpg
Can't really stand over the top tube. still sore 20 minutes taking the picture , with the top tube cutting in and the seat cutting from behind ... what am I doing ...
UUIgNCm.jpeg
crushed
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by crushed »

drossall wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 11:38pm I agree with what I think the last two posters are saying. Your saddle is definitely too low, and it's not obvious to me that you couldn't straddle the frame. You can let the bike lean over a little to gain the odd centimetre if it helps.

The key point is that saddle height is ideally set for when you are riding, i.e. for the distance from pedals to saddle, and not from saddle to ground. Now that can mean certain compromises, especially on smaller bikes. In proportion, smaller bikes have pedals higher off the ground, so it's harder to find a saddle height that is both good for riding and comfortable when stopping and starting.

The page you linked to is perfectly right, but goes on too much about bike size (you've already got a bike). Try using the heel-to-pedal method here. Then lean on a wall or fence, move your feet to a normal position on the pedals, and back-pedal fast. Your knees should be slightly bent at maximum extension, so that you only just don't quite rock in the saddle. A normal position means the widest part of your foot over the pedal spindle (whereas the fitting method above is done with your heel on the pedal - so that, when you go back to the normal position, you get that bit of leg flex).

Given how you've set up the bike in the picture, that's going to feel very high. However, it's right in terms of position. You only need a couple of toes on the floor to balance comfortably when stopping at junctions, and you can always slip forward off the saddle to get more foot to the ground. You should have clearance on the frame to do that, although that top tube is quite steep. If necessary, try moving the saddle up in stages to get used to the best height bit by bit.

One bike shop I was in explained it colourfully to another customer like this: Please walk across the shop floor. Now turn round, bend your knees 45 degrees, and walk back. Riding with a low saddle is pretty-much like that in terms of difficulty!

This blog comments on putting a toe down.

There's more than this to bike fit. The length (from saddle to bars) is important as well. However, let's start with the saddle height. By the way, the saddle should be basically horizontal, and probably not fully back or fully forward (again, there's more to it, but one thing at a time). Oh, and do make sure that it points forward and not slightly off to one side :D

Hope this helps as a start. Please keep posting to let us know how you're getting on. One thing to explore later might be to lower the bars, by moving some spacers from below the stem. Again, that's for later, but here's another page of advice.
Thank you for your advice. Yes, it is very UNCOMFORTABLE riding in this bike. The bars also are too far for me ...
drossall
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by drossall »

crushed wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 10:46amThank you for your advice. Yes, it is very UNCOMFORTABLE riding in this bike. The bars also are too far for me ...
That would follow on a bike that is too big for you. Larger bikes are longer as well as taller, partly because taller people are longer in the body as well as the legs, so stretch further forward, so to speak.

Glad the advice on setting saddle height was useful, but I was clearly too hasty in thinking that that frame size could be made to fit you.
slowster
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by slowster »

There is no need to waste any more time on this thread discussing whether that bike is a suitable fit for you. It clearly is not and never will be. It is clear that the shop staff deliberately and knowingly sold you a bike that was too large for you, despite it presumably being very apparent that you were relying on them to use their expertise and knowledge to sell you a bike that was the right size for you. It is not a borderline case or a matter of opinion: cutting the seat post like that is something which no competent responsible bike shop should ever do.

Presumably the retailer was Evans (Halfords has been mentioned, but it does not sell Trek bikes). Since its takeover by Mike Ashley (Sports Direct), there have been a lot of reports in cycling forums of Evans' customer service worsening, and the new management have reportedly put in place systems that make it difficult, if not impossible, for the staff at the shops to issue refunds, regardless of whether a customer is legally entitled to one.

I think therefore that you will have a very hard time trying to get a refund from Evans. Others have already provided you with some information on your consumer rights under the law, and I suspect Evans would only issue a refund to the extent they are strictly required to by law, and they might only do so if their hand were forced by you making a claim in the County Court (the former so-called small claims court).

I suggest that in the first instance you formally write to Evans' head office to complain, providing them with the photographs above to show how unsuitable the bike is for you. I would say that the solution is for them either to provide a full refund, or to exchange the bike for the same model in the right size. If they rebuff you, then your options are legal action (which will depend upon your case meeting the various legal thresholds, e.g. within the required time limit etc.) and/or complaining to Trek. Trek would probably not normally get involved in a dispute between a bike shop and a customer, but I think there is a chance they might do so in your case, on the grounds that such blatant misselling is damaging to Trek's brand and reputation.
Eyebrox
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by Eyebrox »

Put your complaint in writing. Include clear photographs. The goods are not fit for purpose. Explain that you were unable to properly test the bike out on the road within the 30-day period and that you fell off because it is too big. Also explain that you were present at the point of sale and the sales person was fully aware of your concerns, so much so he or she suggested changing the bike set-up to get round its obvious shortcomings. Send a copy to Trek, asking them to intervene. Send a further two copies to, firstly, your local newspaper and, secondly, BBC's Rip off Britain programme. Do it as soon as. The bike will be swapped for another.
crushed
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by crushed »

slowster wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 6:02pm There is no need to waste any more time on this thread discussing whether that bike is a suitable fit for you. It clearly is not and never will be. It is clear that the shop staff deliberately and knowingly sold you a bike that was too large for you, despite it presumably being very apparent that you were relying on them to use their expertise and knowledge to sell you a bike that was the right size for you. It is not a borderline case or a matter of opinion: cutting the seat post like that is something which no competent responsible bike shop should ever do.

Presumably the retailer was Evans (Halfords has been mentioned, but it does not sell Trek bikes). Since its takeover by Mike Ashley (Sports Direct), there have been a lot of reports in cycling forums of Evans' customer service worsening, and the new management have reportedly put in place systems that make it difficult, if not impossible, for the staff at the shops to issue refunds, regardless of whether a customer is legally entitled to one.

I think therefore that you will have a very hard time trying to get a refund from Evans. Others have already provided you with some information on your consumer rights under the law, and I suspect Evans would only issue a refund to the extent they are strictly required to by law, and they might only do so if their hand were forced by you making a claim in the County Court (the former so-called small claims court).

I suggest that in the first instance you formally write to Evans' head office to complain, providing them with the photographs above to show how unsuitable the bike is for you. I would say that the solution is for them either to provide a full refund, or to exchange the bike for the same model in the right size. If they rebuff you, then your options are legal action (which will depend upon your case meeting the various legal thresholds, e.g. within the required time limit etc.) and/or complaining to Trek. Trek would probably not normally get involved in a dispute between a bike shop and a customer, but I think there is a chance they might do so in your case, on the grounds that such blatant misselling is damaging to Trek's brand and reputation.
Thanks, I think that's what I wanted to validate, whether it is standard practice to cut the tube short and whether it is a borderline case/matter of opinion.
Psamathe
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by Psamathe »

Eyebrox wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 6:31pm ...... The bike will be swapped for another.
Are Trek bikes assembled overseas and UK only imports finished bikes? Wondering as I assume most of the components are the correct size and it's only the frame & forks that are wrong. So if Trek can supply just a correct sized frame & forks then components moved across and the cost impacts for the retailer/Trek significantly reduced.

It's just a thought and I'd not raise it with retailer or Trek at the moment as it would complicate what is a straight forward situation (it's completely the wrong size). But making use of components on a correctly sized frame/forks would be a plan B if one becomes necessary.

Ian
PH
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by PH »

I don't think yet mentioned, though I might have missed it - Your employer.
You have sacrificed some salary in order to have a bike to ride to work, they are involved, technically I believe it's their bike. A letter from them to the cycle scheme provider might carry some weight. There's some heavily vested interests in the chain, the scheme wants your employer and the retailer wants the vouchers...
crushed
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Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 2:21pm

Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by crushed »

I wanted to thank everyone who had taken their time to look at my case, give advice and give me a much more "professional" bike fit just by looking at the photos. This has cleared all the doubts in my minds. Many of you are really much better than the specialized bike shop. You nailed my problems that I did not mention in my first post, the knee pain, difficulty to maneuver for reach on handlebar, backpain.

This is my first true bike other than the time shared bike/rental bike or the tricycle I had when I was 3 years old. I regretted I did not invest more time into understanding bike fit. Your posts did enlighten me what bike I should choose next.

Sorry I will be a coward here, but after back and forth with the you know who, and I am pretty sure now they know what they had done, I have decided to move on.

A pierce of good news is that the Trek Support did confirm that my bike model is still safe to ride after the seat post cut, which means I could swap/exchange at my local bike shop. I had written to cycle scheme to see if they can legally allow me a swap. If not, I will get a pre-owned *RIGHT SIZE* bike and sell this one when the cycle scheme 1-year limit time is up then.

I am grateful for all your wisdom, advice and encouragement.

Happy Riding everyone! :D
drossall
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by drossall »

If you're open with any buyer that the post has been cut, replacing it with a new one will be trivial.
crushed
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by crushed »

drossall wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 8:03pm If you're open with any buyer that the post has been cut, replacing it with a new one will be trivial.
Yes I will, I don't anyone get hurt because of this. So I will most likely sell/exchange at my local bike shop who would know about how to dealt with it properly.
slowster
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by slowster »

crushed wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 10:37am I stopped riding because I can't manage this. Almost hit by carIMG-0569.jpg

Can't really stand over the top tube. still sore 20 minutes taking the picture , with the top tube cutting in and the seat cutting from behind ...
Eyebrox wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 6:31pm Explain that...you fell off because it is too big.
This is potentially decisive. It means that your dispute is not just about whether the goods are fit for purpose, but also whether they are unsafe/dangerous. If they are unsafe/dangerous, then the statutory limits on what and how a consumer may claim for goods that are only unfit for purpose are, I think, irrelevant. That is because when a retailer sells anything "it is a contractual requirement that the goods are of satisfactory quality and therefore safe"*, if they are not safe, then the retailer is in breach of contract.

* You will see that same phrase repeatedly used on Trading Standards office websites and consumer advice websites.

Therefore if you cannot safely dismount your bike, such as at a road junction, then I think you would automatically win a case you took to the county court for breach of contract and to return the bike for a full refund.

It would probably be worthwhile contacting your local Trading Standards office. They may provide advice, and they might also wish to get actively involved (as I understand it, their role/interest is in enforcement, not in getting refunds for customers, but they should be able to advise you and if they did contact Evans that might be enough of a spur to prompt Evans to refund you).

The safety aspect is yet another reason why I think it is serious enough that Trek might want to get involved. That said and being cynical, Evans probably account for a large percentage of Trek's UK sales, and that is probably likely to influence how Trek might approach this.
PT1029
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by PT1029 »

Something about this size would fit the bill much better (33cm BB spindle - top of seat tube), this bike is used for commuting to work.
IMG_20211022_120903416.jpg
rualexander
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by rualexander »

PT1029 wrote: 23 Oct 2021, 12:03pm Something about this size would fit the bill much better (33cm BB spindle - top of seat tube), this bike is used for commuting to work.
IMG_20211022_120903416.jpg
It's down to personal choice and comfort, but the bars are too high and the reach is too long.
thirdcrank
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall

Post by thirdcrank »

slowster wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 8:27pm ....
This is potentially decisive. It means that your dispute is not just about whether the goods are fit for purpose, but also whether they are unsafe/dangerous. If they are unsafe/dangerous, then the statutory limits on what and how a consumer may claim for goods that are only unfit for purpose are, I think, irrelevant. That is because when a retailer sells anything "it is a contractual requirement that the goods are of satisfactory quality and therefore safe"*, if they are not safe, then the retailer is in breach of contract.
.....
I can see what you are getting at but I'd be interested to know if that's based on relevant decisions or it's just your interpretation. I don't claim to know.

A gun is intrinsically dangerous. Ditto many knives, but they are not banned from sale, rather, their sale is regulated.

A bicycle prone to falling apart is not of satisfactory quality because it's unsafe.

Now, a bike that's the wrong dimensions for the rider is unsafe for that rider, but might be ideal for others. I know the picture is blurred here because lowering the height of the saddle has been achieved through modification, possibly after the request of the uninformed buyer. I'll reiterate I don't know how that would be likely to be interpreted.
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