I agree that it isn't fit for purpose.
I'd now be relying on my rights under consumer protection law, with the Small Claims Process as the final step. Do you have legal aid through a union or membership body or insurance policy or anything?
As always: keep a contemporaneous written record of all communications; don't make allegations; don't get emotional; get someone else to check your letters, or sleep on them before sending if you can't; don't delay.
Jonathan
PS: Did you buy using a credit card? And if so please could someone advise on how this could help.
Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
For OP: see how you get on and depending on progress do remember not all is lost and people may be able to suggest "Plan B". But for now I'd still be pushing "Plan A" as discussed above but don't let this discourage you from cycling as may be other (not as good) options.
Ian
Ian
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
Because this is all about sizing, it might be helpful to have a photo of you sitting on the bike. It doesn't have to show your face/head if you prefer not.
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
Indeed, that's what they repliedPH wrote: ↑17 Oct 2021, 11:07pmSadly, despite the poor advice received, I'm pretty sure this is what any consumer regulation will also say.rualexander wrote: ↑17 Oct 2021, 10:15pm They may say however that you accepted it when you collected it.
There's a very limited time to inspect and accept any product, using it for 28 days is going to fall well outside that. It have been a bit better if bought online, but even then not if it's been used.
It seems you were deliberately missold, I'd be taking it as high as possible in the hope someone will be sympathetic.
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
using the cyclescheme.co.ukJdsk wrote: ↑18 Oct 2021, 9:46am I agree that it isn't fit for purpose.
I'd now be relying on my rights under consumer protection law, with the Small Claims Process as the final step. Do you have legal aid through a union or membership body or insurance policy or anything?
As always: keep a contemporaneous written record of all communications; don't make allegations; don't get emotional; get someone else to check your letters, or sleep on them before sending if you can't; don't delay.
Jonathan
PS: Did you buy using a credit card? And if so please could someone advise on how this could help.
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
Attached. I can't raise the seat higher as I can't put my feet on ground to balance when stopping, the crossbar will cut into my body parts if I slide down. This is the highest I can manage at the moment. There are down and up hills road / trails here and it is very difficult to manage those.
Not sure if this is good advice? https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/bike-fit.html. so I have a negative standover clearance .....
Any advice how to tweak this bike?
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Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
I mean I can't do this with this bike ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpMQ6rK0hvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpMQ6rK0hvw
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36778
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
The fundamental point imo is that with a normal bike set up * you cannot have a proper riding position while putting your feet flat on the ground as the critical measurements involve your backside, feet and pedals. ie, It's virtually impossible to ride comfortably with the seat so low and if you were to persist you would risk knee damage. This means that when you stop you need either to slip forward off the saddle or possibly lean the bike to one side, although I'm not sure about the latter, especially on a cambered road. Now, slipping forward off the saddle generally implies an appropriate stand-over height dependent on the rider's leg length. In general, that was probably more of a potential problem in the days of horizontal top tubes than with the current sloping style.
There are differing opinions above about how you reached your current situation and whether the shop should have explained this fundamental point.
* I included 'normal' but I think it's any upright
There are differing opinions above about how you reached your current situation and whether the shop should have explained this fundamental point.
* I included 'normal' but I think it's any upright
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wirral_cyclist
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: 17 May 2010, 9:25pm
- Location: Wirral Merseyside
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
A very poor retailer (of car parts?) should never have sold you that size really.
I can see on the original photo there is very little room between the seat and top tube but top tube is a bit lower, in the mounted photo you can nearly stand over the saddle so therefore should be able to stand over the top tube, so in essence I think it is rideable. But that seat is too low to ride, you need your leg at six o'clock to be just straight using your heel, then you are in ideal position to ride so as not to damage your knees.
Penny farthings don't allow people to stand over but they are ridden with just a bit of practice - and that's what you need practice (not penny farthing).
I can see on the original photo there is very little room between the seat and top tube but top tube is a bit lower, in the mounted photo you can nearly stand over the saddle so therefore should be able to stand over the top tube, so in essence I think it is rideable. But that seat is too low to ride, you need your leg at six o'clock to be just straight using your heel, then you are in ideal position to ride so as not to damage your knees.
Penny farthings don't allow people to stand over but they are ridden with just a bit of practice - and that's what you need practice (not penny farthing).
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
I agree with what I think the last two posters are saying. Your saddle is definitely too low, and it's not obvious to me that you couldn't straddle the frame. You can let the bike lean over a little to gain the odd centimetre if it helps.
The key point is that saddle height is ideally set for when you are riding, i.e. for the distance from pedals to saddle, and not from saddle to ground. Now that can mean certain compromises, especially on smaller bikes. In proportion, smaller bikes have pedals higher off the ground, so it's harder to find a saddle height that is both good for riding and comfortable when stopping and starting.
The page you linked to is perfectly right, but goes on too much about bike size (you've already got a bike). Try using the heel-to-pedal method here. Then lean on a wall or fence, move your feet to a normal position on the pedals, and back-pedal fast. Your knees should be slightly bent at maximum extension, so that you only just don't quite rock in the saddle. A normal position means the widest part of your foot over the pedal spindle (whereas the fitting method above is done with your heel on the pedal - so that, when you go back to the normal position, you get that bit of leg flex).
Given how you've set up the bike in the picture, that's going to feel very high. However, it's right in terms of position. You only need a couple of toes on the floor to balance comfortably when stopping at junctions, and you can always slip forward off the saddle to get more foot to the ground. You should have clearance on the frame to do that, although that top tube is quite steep. If necessary, try moving the saddle up in stages to get used to the best height bit by bit.
One bike shop I was in explained it colourfully to another customer like this: Please walk across the shop floor. Now turn round, bend your knees 45 degrees, and walk back. Riding with a low saddle is pretty-much like that in terms of difficulty!
This blog comments on putting a toe down.
There's more than this to bike fit. The length (from saddle to bars) is important as well. However, let's start with the saddle height. By the way, the saddle should be basically horizontal, and probably not fully back or fully forward (again, there's more to it, but one thing at a time). Oh, and do make sure that it points forward and not slightly off to one side
Hope this helps as a start. Please keep posting to let us know how you're getting on. One thing to explore later might be to lower the bars, by moving some spacers from below the stem. Again, that's for later, but here's another page of advice.
The key point is that saddle height is ideally set for when you are riding, i.e. for the distance from pedals to saddle, and not from saddle to ground. Now that can mean certain compromises, especially on smaller bikes. In proportion, smaller bikes have pedals higher off the ground, so it's harder to find a saddle height that is both good for riding and comfortable when stopping and starting.
The page you linked to is perfectly right, but goes on too much about bike size (you've already got a bike). Try using the heel-to-pedal method here. Then lean on a wall or fence, move your feet to a normal position on the pedals, and back-pedal fast. Your knees should be slightly bent at maximum extension, so that you only just don't quite rock in the saddle. A normal position means the widest part of your foot over the pedal spindle (whereas the fitting method above is done with your heel on the pedal - so that, when you go back to the normal position, you get that bit of leg flex).
Given how you've set up the bike in the picture, that's going to feel very high. However, it's right in terms of position. You only need a couple of toes on the floor to balance comfortably when stopping at junctions, and you can always slip forward off the saddle to get more foot to the ground. You should have clearance on the frame to do that, although that top tube is quite steep. If necessary, try moving the saddle up in stages to get used to the best height bit by bit.
One bike shop I was in explained it colourfully to another customer like this: Please walk across the shop floor. Now turn round, bend your knees 45 degrees, and walk back. Riding with a low saddle is pretty-much like that in terms of difficulty!
This blog comments on putting a toe down.
There's more than this to bike fit. The length (from saddle to bars) is important as well. However, let's start with the saddle height. By the way, the saddle should be basically horizontal, and probably not fully back or fully forward (again, there's more to it, but one thing at a time). Oh, and do make sure that it points forward and not slightly off to one side
Hope this helps as a start. Please keep posting to let us know how you're getting on. One thing to explore later might be to lower the bars, by moving some spacers from below the stem. Again, that's for later, but here's another page of advice.
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
The saddle looks a bit low to me. That said, I think the top tube (cross bar) is too high for you to safely stand over - the bike is too big for you..
Having worked in a bike shop, I found that people with short legs often had to make a choice of a saddle at the correct height for pedalling but was too high to put their foot down when stopped (so at traffic lights they would have to move forward off the saddle), OR have the saddle low enough to put their foot down when stopped, but thus too low a position when pedalling. The shorter the legs, the more this was an issue.
Note the above does not mention frame size, only saddle height. The bike you were sold has a frame that is too big, plain and simple. With that, I would say the bike is unsuitable, try higher up the (Trek UK) management food chain or local trading standards (probably your local county council). I once had an issue where I changed broad band, the old provider would not give me a transfer code, so I stopped paying, they still refused to give a transfer code. I wrote to the UK CEO of the company who got it sorted. Trek are a company with a good reputaion to look after, they should be keen to get you sorted.
On the cutting the bottom of the seat post off to get the saddle low enough. When I worked in a local bike shop (Trek dealer as it happened) were told to NEVER EVER cut a seat post down - in doing so you remove the maximum height marker. Thus in the future someone might put the seat up, and not seeing the max height mark appear assume there is a safe lenght of seat post left in the frame, when in fact their could be almost none inside the bike frame, making it potentially dangerous. If a bike needed a shorter seat post, we were to replace it with a shorter one of the same diameter.
A shame really, as a bike it looks a nice bike!
Having worked in a bike shop, I found that people with short legs often had to make a choice of a saddle at the correct height for pedalling but was too high to put their foot down when stopped (so at traffic lights they would have to move forward off the saddle), OR have the saddle low enough to put their foot down when stopped, but thus too low a position when pedalling. The shorter the legs, the more this was an issue.
Note the above does not mention frame size, only saddle height. The bike you were sold has a frame that is too big, plain and simple. With that, I would say the bike is unsuitable, try higher up the (Trek UK) management food chain or local trading standards (probably your local county council). I once had an issue where I changed broad band, the old provider would not give me a transfer code, so I stopped paying, they still refused to give a transfer code. I wrote to the UK CEO of the company who got it sorted. Trek are a company with a good reputaion to look after, they should be keen to get you sorted.
On the cutting the bottom of the seat post off to get the saddle low enough. When I worked in a local bike shop (Trek dealer as it happened) were told to NEVER EVER cut a seat post down - in doing so you remove the maximum height marker. Thus in the future someone might put the seat up, and not seeing the max height mark appear assume there is a safe lenght of seat post left in the frame, when in fact their could be almost none inside the bike frame, making it potentially dangerous. If a bike needed a shorter seat post, we were to replace it with a shorter one of the same diameter.
A shame really, as a bike it looks a nice bike!
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
I may be wrong on thinking you can just adjust the saddle. It's a matter of judging how much higher it would be at the correct height. And whether you can in fact stand over the bike, of course. Show the difficulty of doing these things without the bike and rider in front of you.
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
Appologies as I have not read the whole thread, the pictures do show the bike is too big for the rider astride the bike.
By cutting down the seat post I think they have made the bike dangerous as they have removed the minimum insertion mark, or made it so any remaining mark could lead to too little post in the frame. This could easily lead to a serous accident if the saddle height was adjusted higher (even professionally), say if you let a taller friend borrow the bike. They have effectively removed or made useless a safety critical marking on the seat post.
If they are refusing a refund because they have cut down the seat post try to get this in writing, e.g. an email, to show they have supplied a potentially unsafe product. You could then use that as leverage in any refund claim with them, or through trading standards.
Hope this helps and good luck with resolving this issue.
By cutting down the seat post I think they have made the bike dangerous as they have removed the minimum insertion mark, or made it so any remaining mark could lead to too little post in the frame. This could easily lead to a serous accident if the saddle height was adjusted higher (even professionally), say if you let a taller friend borrow the bike. They have effectively removed or made useless a safety critical marking on the seat post.
If they are refusing a refund because they have cut down the seat post try to get this in writing, e.g. an email, to show they have supplied a potentially unsafe product. You could then use that as leverage in any refund claim with them, or through trading standards.
Hope this helps and good luck with resolving this issue.
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
I don't know why people are going on about the saddle height, that isn't crushed's issue. It's clear from the photo that if they can't stand astride the bike while on saddle in it's current position, they won't be able to stand astride the bike off the saddle with it in any position.
Where to go from here? There's differing opinions about the consumer rights, best get some proper advice rather than relying on a forum, or the retailer. I'd get some trusted source to confirm the size is unsuitable, Trek's own size guide or even better another shop. Then just keep pushing that you've been missold, the retailer, the distributer, the cycle scheme, social media, anyone you can think of, just don't quote consumer rights unless you're 100% sure of them.
Where to go from here? There's differing opinions about the consumer rights, best get some proper advice rather than relying on a forum, or the retailer. I'd get some trusted source to confirm the size is unsuitable, Trek's own size guide or even better another shop. Then just keep pushing that you've been missold, the retailer, the distributer, the cycle scheme, social media, anyone you can think of, just don't quote consumer rights unless you're 100% sure of them.
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36778
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: Refused exchange or partial refund - bike stand over height too tall
This is an important point. Somewhere along the line I've picked up the phrase "You have for a short time the right to reject goods if ...." and I don't think that extends to four weeks when a fault is not a hidden one.rualexander wrote: ↑17 Oct 2021, 10:15pm .....
They may say however that you accepted it when you collected it.
Anyway, you need to decide your strategy which really falls between looking for goodwill, even if that involves some shaming tactics, or alternatively, the legal route to redress. If it's the latter, then you may need better legal advice than you will generally find on an internet forum. Unfortunately, local authority trading standards - who I've found invaluable - seem to have reduced (terminated?) their consumer help. Another source of advice if you have access is Citizens Advice. My comments on this thread are based on what I remember from my training as a CAB (as it was then) volunteer advisor but that was a long time ago.
(PH got in before me)