"We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Specific board for this popular undertaking.
User avatar
Syd
Posts: 878
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Syd » 16 Nov 2020, 5:30pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Syd wrote:
pwa wrote:.I don't agree with the notion that we should protect remote communities by not visiting them, because when you think about it the implication is that you should stick to higher population density places where you and your family are more likely to catch Covid and more likely to pass it on. It makes more sense for us to avoid places where there are lots of other people.

I received an urgent request for assistance from Scottish Government to a remote part of the country to supply a member of staff to set up medical equipment that had been rushed to the area as part if the Covid response.

These remote areas are fragile and must be protected.

I think that they can be protected if the regime we all know well by now is observed though. A couple of self-supporting (in the main, reading the article) travellers like this are in themselves likely to be low risk in terms of infection, and tbh are unlikely to result in an influx of individuals copy-catting, I'd have thought.

That regime is not being well observed though.

You’re thoughts also differ from mine.

Ok we won’t get copycats doing LEJOG, especially at this time of year, but it will encourage travel to those areas where even a small outbreak would be potentially disastrous for some.

pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re:

Postby pwa » 16 Nov 2020, 5:42pm

Syd wrote:
pwa wrote:.I don't agree with the notion that we should protect remote communities by not visiting them, because when you think about it the implication is that you should stick to higher population density places where you and your family are more likely to catch Covid and more likely to pass it on. It makes more sense for us to avoid places where there are lots of other people.

I received an urgent request for assistance from Scottish Government to a remote part of the country to supply a member of staff to set up medical equipment that had been rushed to the area as part if the Covid response.

These remote areas are fragile and must be protected.

The people in those places are no more fragile than the people living in cities, they are just more privileged in living in places where people don't have to cram together. I live in a village where I am relatively safe and I would feel disgusted with myself if I found myself trying to deter visitors from the valleys communities where Covid has been more active. Everyone has a need for open spaces and safe outdoor recreation. It does not belong to those who are lucky enough to live there.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8711
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Nov 2020, 5:45pm

It's an article published on 15th Nov, during a time when the biggest part of the UK is locked down, detailing a very specialist tour, which ended at JoG, and which has two paras (1 if we ignore the JoG one) detailing their journey North of Inverness - the fragile/remote bit, if you like.

I think it falls short of my definition of irresponsibility on that basis, and will be long, long forgotten by the time people's thoughts turn to emerging from hibernation.

User avatar
Syd
Posts: 878
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Syd » 16 Nov 2020, 6:35pm

pwa wrote:
Syd wrote:
pwa wrote:.I don't agree with the notion that we should protect remote communities by not visiting them, because when you think about it the implication is that you should stick to higher population density places where you and your family are more likely to catch Covid and more likely to pass it on. It makes more sense for us to avoid places where there are lots of other people.

I received an urgent request for assistance from Scottish Government to a remote part of the country to supply a member of staff to set up medical equipment that had been rushed to the area as part if the Covid response.

These remote areas are fragile and must be protected.

The people in those places are no more fragile than the people living in cities, they are just more privileged in living in places where people don't have to cram together. I live in a village where I am relatively safe and I would feel disgusted with myself if I found myself trying to deter visitors from the valleys communities where Covid has been more active. Everyone has a need for open spaces and safe outdoor recreation. It does not belong to those who are lucky enough to live there.

I did not say the people are fragile. The healthcare and other infrastructure supporting it is thought.

pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re:

Postby pwa » 16 Nov 2020, 6:59pm

Syd wrote:
pwa wrote:
Syd wrote:I received an urgent request for assistance from Scottish Government to a remote part of the country to supply a member of staff to set up medical equipment that had been rushed to the area as part if the Covid response.

These remote areas are fragile and must be protected.

The people in those places are no more fragile than the people living in cities, they are just more privileged in living in places where people don't have to cram together. I live in a village where I am relatively safe and I would feel disgusted with myself if I found myself trying to deter visitors from the valleys communities where Covid has been more active. Everyone has a need for open spaces and safe outdoor recreation. It does not belong to those who are lucky enough to live there.

I did not say the people are fragile. The healthcare and other infrastructure supporting it is thought.

Stepping back in time for a moment, at the start of the crisis in March or April it was reasonable to worry about that. But since then we have got a better feel for how many people can become ill enough to need hospital, and how quickly, and it now looks improbable that more remote places would be overwhelmed with patients unable to get to large hospitals quick enough. The holiday areas of west Wales did not suddenly become Covid hotspots when the holidaymakers arrived in big numbers in July. There had been worries about that but it didn't materialise.

User avatar
Syd
Posts: 878
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

"We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Syd » 16 Nov 2020, 7:16pm

pwa wrote:
Syd wrote:
pwa wrote:The people in those places are no more fragile than the people living in cities, they are just more privileged in living in places where people don't have to cram together. I live in a village where I am relatively safe and I would feel disgusted with myself if I found myself trying to deter visitors from the valleys communities where Covid has been more active. Everyone has a need for open spaces and safe outdoor recreation. It does not belong to those who are lucky enough to live there.

I did not say the people are fragile. The healthcare and other infrastructure supporting it is thought.

Stepping back in time for a moment, at the start of the crisis in March or April it was reasonable to worry about that. But since then we have got a better feel for how many people can become ill enough to need hospital, and how quickly, and it now looks improbable that more remote places would be overwhelmed with patients unable to get to large hospitals quick enough. The holiday areas of west Wales did not suddenly become Covid hotspots when the holidaymakers arrived in big numbers in July. There had been worries about that but it didn't materialise.

Hospitals have learned a lot from the first wave about how to treat people. Unfortunately they are now victims of their own success with patients taking up hospital beds for several weeks at a time.

It’s not just ICU patients. It doesn’t take too many ill patients, on supplementary oxygen, to exceed the output of the VIE (vacuum insulated evaporator) even in a large hospital*. That’s where the smaller units are most vulnerable.

*It actually occurred in a hospital in Watford during wave one; they were turning patients away.

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 14917
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Railway Cuttings East, Leafy Suburbia

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Cyril Haearn » 16 Nov 2020, 7:27pm

Maybe many people act responsibly and would not see the article as encouragement to break the rules
But maybe some would try to copy, by travelling themselves

Should not have been published I think
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies

pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re:

Postby pwa » 16 Nov 2020, 7:27pm

Syd wrote:Hospitals have learned a lot from the first wave about how to treat people. Unfortunately they are now victims of their own success with patients taking up hospital beds for several weeks at a time.

It’s not just ICU patients. It doesn’t take too many ill patients, on supplementary oxygen, to exceed the output of the VIE (vacuum insulated evaporator) even in a large hospital*. That’s where the smaller units are most vulnerable.

*It actually occurred in a hospital in, IIRC, Essex during wave one.

But have remote facilities shown any real tendency to be overwhelmed by sick visitors? I don't think that has happened. When the virus has been most prolific there have been travel restrictions, and when it hasn't been as prolific there hasn't been any significant outbreak caused by holidaymakers visiting remote places. I can see why folk travelling from big cities to the Hebrides in April would have been very unwelcome, for the reason you outline, but in August or September the risk was minimal.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8711
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Nov 2020, 7:36pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:Maybe many people act responsibly and would not see the article as encouragement to break the rules
But maybe some would try to copy, by travelling themselves

Should not have been published I think

You have railed against censorship on more than one occasion. I'm wondering how you square the two off?

User avatar
Syd
Posts: 878
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Syd » 16 Nov 2020, 7:50pm

pwa wrote:
Syd wrote:Hospitals have learned a lot from the first wave about how to treat people. Unfortunately they are now victims of their own success with patients taking up hospital beds for several weeks at a time.

It’s not just ICU patients. It doesn’t take too many ill patients, on supplementary oxygen, to exceed the output of the VIE (vacuum insulated evaporator) even in a large hospital*. That’s where the smaller units are most vulnerable.

*It actually occurred in a hospital in, IIRC, Essex during wave one.

But have remote facilities shown any real tendency to be overwhelmed by sick visitors? I don't think that has happened. When the virus has been most prolific there have been travel restrictions, and when it hasn't been as prolific there hasn't been any significant outbreak caused by holidaymakers visiting remote places. I can see why folk travelling from big cities to the Hebrides in April would have been very unwelcome, for the reason you outline, but in August or September the risk was minimal.

Yes.

E.g hotels in the Highlands being shut in mid September due to an outbreak of Covid among guests.

I know from a group I am involved with what that did to local healthcare facilities.

pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re:

Postby pwa » 16 Nov 2020, 8:10pm

Syd wrote:
pwa wrote:
Syd wrote:Hospitals have learned a lot from the first wave about how to treat people. Unfortunately they are now victims of their own success with patients taking up hospital beds for several weeks at a time.

It’s not just ICU patients. It doesn’t take too many ill patients, on supplementary oxygen, to exceed the output of the VIE (vacuum insulated evaporator) even in a large hospital*. That’s where the smaller units are most vulnerable.

*It actually occurred in a hospital in, IIRC, Essex during wave one.

But have remote facilities shown any real tendency to be overwhelmed by sick visitors? I don't think that has happened. When the virus has been most prolific there have been travel restrictions, and when it hasn't been as prolific there hasn't been any significant outbreak caused by holidaymakers visiting remote places. I can see why folk travelling from big cities to the Hebrides in April would have been very unwelcome, for the reason you outline, but in August or September the risk was minimal.

Yes.

E.g hotels in the Highlands being shut in mid September due to an outbreak of Covid among guests.

I know from a group I am involved with what that did to local healthcare facilities.

Were they affected more than health facilities in more populous areas? My local hospital has had whole wards close when staff and patients tested positive. I doubt health service provision in more remote areas has been as badly affected as in built up areas. (Do we now have a contest for whose local hospital is the worst affected :lol: )

User avatar
Syd
Posts: 878
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Syd » 16 Nov 2020, 8:21pm

pwa wrote:
Syd wrote:
pwa wrote:But have remote facilities shown any real tendency to be overwhelmed by sick visitors? I don't think that has happened. When the virus has been most prolific there have been travel restrictions, and when it hasn't been as prolific there hasn't been any significant outbreak caused by holidaymakers visiting remote places. I can see why folk travelling from big cities to the Hebrides in April would have been very unwelcome, for the reason you outline, but in August or September the risk was minimal.

Yes.

E.g hotels in the Highlands being shut in mid September due to an outbreak of Covid among guests.

I know from a group I am involved with what that did to local healthcare facilities.

Were they affected more than health facilities in more populous areas? My local hospital has had whole wards close when staff and patients tested positive. I doubt health service provision in more remote areas has been as badly affected as in built up areas. (Do we now have a contest for whose local hospital is the worst affected :lol: )

Take a hospital such as the Lorn & Islands District General Hospital, a small hospital in Oban with 66 inpatient beds, and compare it to the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, Scotland’s largest, with over 1,100 inpatient beds.

Adding an additional 10 patients into the former would cause significantly more issues than adding 100 plus into the latter.

pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re:

Postby pwa » 16 Nov 2020, 8:31pm

Syd wrote:
Adding an additional 10 patients into the former would cause significantly more issues than adding 100 plus into the latter.

But how do Covid levels compare in the catchment of those two facilities? My local hospital has had Covid patients arriving, but it has also had patients with other conditions catching Covid after admission. Just because we have a bigger hospital does not mean it is working out easier to juggle things. Remote parts of the country, by and large, have had an easier ride so far.

User avatar
Syd
Posts: 878
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Re: "We were sick of lockdown – so cycled from Land’s End to John o’Groats"

Postby Syd » 16 Nov 2020, 9:00pm

pwa wrote:
Syd wrote:
Adding an additional 10 patients into the former would cause significantly more issues than adding 100 plus into the latter.

But how do Covid levels compare in the catchment of those two facilities? My local hospital has had Covid patients arriving, but it has also had patients with other conditions catching Covid after admission. Just because we have a bigger hospital does not mean it is working out easier to juggle things. Remote parts of the country, by and large, have had an easier ride so far.

In order to calculate that then one cannot look at the QEUH in isolation, instead they would need to consider the 35 hospitals making up the Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health Board and then look into each to work out how many beds would be available for the almost 1.2 million population it serves. The total bed figure is not readily available.

Then, looking at L&IDGH, we know the bed count, 66, but not the population it serves. Again that figure is not readily available.

As for remote areas having an easy ride, some have, others haven’t. When they get hit the outcome is harder .

pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re:

Postby pwa » 16 Nov 2020, 9:15pm

Syd wrote:As for remote areas having an easy ride, some have, others haven’t. When they get hit the outcome is harder .

You know the situation in Scotland much better than me. In Wales the areas with the lowest population density, which were also areas favoured by tourists in July and August, have been the areas with the lowest incidence of Covid, and a much lower Covid death rate per 100 000 than in the densely populated areas. The summer surge of tourists did not provoke a spike in cases. Cases have risen in those areas recently, though still far below the rates in the built-up areas, but the increase can hardly be blamed on tourists at this time of year. As in other places, it is mostly local people mixing a bit too freely in their homes.
Last edited by pwa on 17 Nov 2020, 7:35am, edited 1 time in total.