Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Specific board for this popular undertaking.
Jdsk
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

TrevA wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 7:05pm
Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 1:55pm
LittleGreyCat wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 1:39pmThe main challenge is not to weaken and to stick to protein and fats.
Why do you group proteins with fats and not with carbohydrates?
Because Keto is Low Carb, eating no more than 20-50g of carbs per day. You can teach your body to run off it’s own fat stores (or the fat that you eat). Most people have around 100,000 calories worth of energy stored as body fat, but only 2 hours worth of carb (glycogen) stores.
That didn't mention proteins...

Jonathan
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TrevA
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by TrevA »

admin wrote: 3 Apr 2021, 2:55pm
LittleGreyCat wrote: 3 Apr 2021, 2:25pm It was very flat with mostly tail winds, though.
LittleGreyCat wrote: 3 Apr 2021, 2:25pmJOGLE is the chosen direction because the first couple of days LEJOG are the hardest of the whole ride.
The reason most people go LEJOG is because of the prevailing winds being from the south west. LEJOG gives you the best chance of mostly tailwinds, JOGLE you'll probably have mostly headwinds.

Worth considering, at least.
Not necessarily. Look at the weather in recent weeks - the wind has been coming from the North for several weeks now. When we did our JOGLE, we had a few headwind days to start, but then a high pressure settled over the country and we had tailwinds (and sunshine) all the way from Gretna Green to Land End. Ours was in mid to late May.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
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TrevA
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by TrevA »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 7:10pm
TrevA wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 7:05pm
Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 1:55pm
Why do you group proteins with fats and not with carbohydrates?
Because Keto is Low Carb, eating no more than 20-50g of carbs per day. You can teach your body to run off it’s own fat stores (or the fat that you eat). Most people have around 100,000 calories worth of energy stored as body fat, but only 2 hours worth of carb (glycogen) stores.
That didn't mention proteins...

Jonathan
Yes, you can and should eat proteins as they help the body recover, but carbs are not necessary. Also, best not to eat too many proteins as they can be turned into glycogen by a process known as Glucogenesis. The accepted percentage macros for Ketosis are 70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs. This forces your body into Ketosis, which means it runs on ketones as fuel rather than glycogen.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
Jdsk
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

Do you mean glycogenesis or gluconeogenesis?

Was the grouping of proteins with fats in this context because some amino acids are ketogenic? Of course most are glucogenic.

Thanks

Jonathan
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TrevA
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by TrevA »

Sorry, yes it’s Gluconeogenesis.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
simonhill
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by simonhill »

I've never really got this training thing if your are a regular cyclist.

I can see the value if:
you have never ridden a bike seriously before;
you are doing some sort of race or endurance competition where you need to perform at your absolute best; or
you feel insecure in your ability to do the ride.

You've toured a bit and you can make sure you ride regularly so I wouldn't worry about it. I think that people who ride regularly have a sort of inbuilt physical memory which enables them to ride any reasonable tour. Fifty miles a day is a good distance. When you break it down into hours or speed, it is a fairly gentle day as you get over 12 hours of daylight in September.

Just ride your bike as often as possible, even a few miles to keep your bum in tune with the saddle. I ride about 15 miles per day on my daily seafront ride and have no concerns about tripling that if I go on tour. In the winter when I do most of my touring (somewhere hot) I have no problems with a 7 week layoff over Christmas, etc. I am a bit slow for the first few days, but nothing of consequence.
Ellieb
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Ellieb »

Re the wind direction. Clearly you cannot always predict what the weather will do. You do get long periods of N or NE winds associated with high pressure, but the fact is the prevailing winds in the UK are SW even in summer, so you are more likely to have headwinds on a JOGLE, but this us far from guaranteed. If you look at the stats you will see that the SW winds are also, on average, stronger than those from the North.
LittleGreyCat
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by LittleGreyCat »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 7:26pm Do you mean glycogenesis or gluconeogenesis?

Was the grouping of proteins with fats in this context because some amino acids are ketogenic? Of course most are glucogenic.

Thanks

Jonathan
The proteins, as stated above, are intended to repair any damage to muscle, amongst other things.
There is now a movement towards increasing the amount of protein and reducing the amount of fat; we shall see.
The main thing is to minimise the carbohydrates.

Gluconeogenesis will be taking place anyway because there are parts of your body (mainly bits of blood and brain) which need glucose because they can't metabolise ketones. You need a basic BG level otherwise your body panics.

As stated up thread the good thing about being fat adapted is that your body carries a good supply which can be released continuously to provide energy so you don't hit the "refuel or bonk" problem after a couple of hours.
Jdsk
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks.
LittleGreyCat wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:33pmAs stated up thread the good thing about being fat adapted is that your body carries a good supply which can be released continuously to provide energy so you don't hit the "refuel or bonk" problem after a couple of hours.
What's the evidence that this works in practice, please?

Jonathan
LittleGreyCat
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by LittleGreyCat »

simonhill wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 8:12pm <snip>
Just ride your bike as often as possible, even a few miles to keep your bum in tune with the saddle. I ride about 15 miles per day on my daily seafront ride and have no concerns about tripling that if I go on tour. In the winter when I do most of my touring (somewhere hot) I have no problems with a 7 week layoff over Christmas, etc. I am a bit slow for the first few days, but nothing of consequence.
If I rode 15 miles every day plus longer rides then I wouldn't be talking about training up.
I am starting from a base of not riding during the lockdown (because the group ride was against the rules) to riding once a week for about 20-25 miles.
I have aspirations to ride three times a week, but getting back on the bike after a layoff has amply demonstrated that you use it or lose it.

For my last tour I trained specifically, extending mileage to over 50 miles and making sure that I rode 3 days back to back over 30 miles because one long day and a rest doesn't make a tour (well, it could, I suppose, but probably not a JOGLE).

As I stated at the start of the thread i was asking the question "having seen people talking about starting training one year with a plan to do the ride the following year".

6 weeks zero to hero seems a reasonable time scale, and a stake in the ground for the "I really, really ought to start training" moment.
LittleGreyCat
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by LittleGreyCat »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:39pm Thanks.
LittleGreyCat wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:33pmAs stated up thread the good thing about being fat adapted is that your body carries a good supply which can be released continuously to provide energy so you don't hit the "refuel or bonk" problem after a couple of hours.
What's the evidence that this works in practice, please?

Jonathan
As a relatively unfit cyclist I can ride for 50 miles on only a coffee, cream and butter to fuel myself and still not be hungry when I get back home.
At 10 mph that is around 5 hours.

For some scientific background you could read:
http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/
Their two books (shown on the site) helped me a lot when I started out on the Low Carbohydrate High Fat (LCHF) route.
Available from Amazon and other book sellers.

If you use an Internet search engine and look at the many, many keto sites you will find loads of (occasionally good) information.
Jdsk
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

LittleGreyCat wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:50pm
Jdsk wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:39pm
LittleGreyCat wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:33pmAs stated up thread the good thing about being fat adapted is that your body carries a good supply which can be released continuously to provide energy so you don't hit the "refuel or bonk" problem after a couple of hours.
What's the evidence that this works in practice, please?
For some scientific background you could read:
http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/
I had a look at their "Research" page. I couldn't find anything that suggested that this would avoid the bonk.
http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/research/

Is there any evidence for this in practice, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
LittleGreyCat
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by LittleGreyCat »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 8:05pm
LittleGreyCat wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:50pm
Jdsk wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 7:39pm What's the evidence that this works in practice, please?
For some scientific background you could read:
http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/
I had a look at their "Research" page. I couldn't find anything that suggested that this would avoid the bonk.
http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/research/

Is there any evidence for this in practice, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
Well, I did tell you that I can ride 5 hours without the bonk.
If that isn't evidence in practice than I'm not sure what you are continually asking for.

Edit:
Straight into my Kindle and:
"Keto-adaptation provides a steady and sustained source of fuel for the brain, thereby protecting athletes from hitting the wall.

Phinney, Stephen. The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (Kindle Locations 424-425). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition. "

Noting that "hitting the wall" is equivalent to "the bonk".
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TrevA
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by TrevA »

For our JOGLE, we started serious preparation about 4 months before, just riding 3 times a week, but gradually extending the distance. We started the the tour in mid-May but from mid-April we added a few evening rides as it was light enough to ride in the early evening. We got to the point where we could do back to back 60 mile rides, usually on a Saturday and Sunday, to try and simulate the sort of tiredness we would experience on the JOGLE itself. We built up to 150-200 miles a week by early May.

We did our JOGLE over 18 days with one rest day in the middle, averaging 60 miles a day, though the hardest day was a very hilly ride from Shap to Whaley Abbey, where we had to abandon the planned route across the Trough of Bowland. We found that our legs ached from the previous day for about the first half hour of the ride, but this would ease as you got warmed up and into your rhythm. We took our time, riding an average of 6 hours a day actual riding time but with 2-3 breaks during the day to refuel/sightsee, etc, so about 8 hours in total each day. We averaged 10mph over the whole 1000 miles distance, but we carried all our own kit in 2 panniers each.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
simonhill
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Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by simonhill »

No one has mentioned luggage.

We don't know the style of the trip - fully loaded camping or super lightweight. Nonetheless luggage makes a big difference to speed handling and over some terrain, effort.

Well worth going loaded if doing serious training.
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