Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Specific board for this popular undertaking.
LittleGreyCat
Posts: 1177
Joined: 7 Aug 2013, 8:31pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by LittleGreyCat »

simonhill wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 8:51am No one has mentioned luggage.

We don't know the style of the trip - fully loaded camping or super lightweight. Nonetheless luggage makes a big difference to speed handling and over some terrain, effort.

Well worth going loaded if doing serious training.
Noted. :D

I did say up top that I was planning an escorted ride with unescorted as the fallback.

My previous four day tour was stopping at hotels/B&B so we did train with luggage.
I also carried far too much "belt&braces" stuff such as many different tools.
We did have a couple of mechanicals but only a very small part of the toolkit was required.

Noting that if you fit four panniers and a bar bag there is all that enticing space just begging to be filled with a "just in case".
PH
Posts: 13099
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by PH »

LittleGreyCat wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 8:44pm Well, I did tell you that I can ride 5 hours without the bonk.
If that isn't evidence in practice than I'm not sure what you are continually asking for.
I frequently do that, on 200km Audax I like to have just the one stop, so 5 hours, eat, another 5 hours. Doesn't have anything to do with keto.
I ride with some who need to snack constantly.
We're all different, please don't confuse anecdote with data.
PH
Posts: 13099
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by PH »

TrevA wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 7:14pm Not necessarily. Look at the weather in recent weeks - the wind has been coming from the North for several weeks now.
indeed, last time I was in Scotland, not on an E2E, the wind was in opposite directions depending on whether you were on the East or West coast, we were going up the middle!
When I did JoG>LE we had awful headwind for the first couple of days, then met a couple coming in the opposite direction in Inverness. Well actually in the train station, they were trying to change their tickets as the headwind they suffered in Cornwall and Devon had cost them a day. I don't know if they managed to book another train, if not they were going to cut it short as they had to be back at work, another advantage of ending in the south - plenty of train options.
User avatar
TrevA
Posts: 3545
Joined: 1 Jun 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by TrevA »

Yes, that’s why we ended up at Lands End. Plenty of trains back from Penzance and only one change for us, the same train all the way from Penzance to Derby. We had 3 changes of train on the way to Wick and it was a 14 hour journey. Only 7 hours back from Penzance. Of course, YMMV acccording to where you live.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
LittleGreyCat
Posts: 1177
Joined: 7 Aug 2013, 8:31pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by LittleGreyCat »

PH wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 3:02pm
LittleGreyCat wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 8:44pm Well, I did tell you that I can ride 5 hours without the bonk.
If that isn't evidence in practice than I'm not sure what you are continually asking for.
I frequently do that, on 200km Audax I like to have just the one stop, so 5 hours, eat, another 5 hours. Doesn't have anything to do with keto.
I ride with some who need to snack constantly.
We're all different, please don't confuse anecdote with data.
With respect, and I am aware that we are drifting between science and faith, but are you sure that you didn't enter ketosis?

I have had a misunderstanding with others when discussing ketosis where the other party assumed that I was talking about the training regime where you switch into keto mode part way through the exercise when glucose supplies run out.
I recall discussing this with someone who said that they had tried it but ketosis didn't work.
Turned out that they were eating carbohydrates but attempting to switch to ketones during exercise but found the transition too hard.
Meanwhile I was talking from a position of being in permanent dietary ketosis (as shown by urine strips and finger prick blood tests) not just entering ketosis part way through exercise.

Without you testing for ketones after your 5 hour session (I assume that you haven't, but please say if you have) there is no real indication whether you have been exercising for 5 hours on glucose stores (which is unusual) or if you are one of the lucky ones who can switch seamlessly between fat burning and carbohydrate burning.

It is interesting (but not scientific proof) that you ride with others who have to snack constantly.
I ride with others who have to stop to refuel with carbohydrates, when I am fine.

All I know is that I am usually in dietary ketosis and this allows me to usually ride without refuelling when others feel the need to stop and eat.

Scientists such as Volek and Phinney provide a research background to this.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

LittleGreyCat wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 7:53pmScientists such as Volek and Phinney provide a research background to this.
As above, I'd be very interested in any studies demonstrating that this prevents the bonk or anything similar.

Jonathan
LittleGreyCat
Posts: 1177
Joined: 7 Aug 2013, 8:31pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by LittleGreyCat »

Jdsk wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 7:59pm
LittleGreyCat wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 7:53pmScientists such as Volek and Phinney provide a research background to this.
As above, I'd be very interested in any studies demonstrating that this prevents the bonk or anything similar.

Jonathan
I believe that yesterday I posted a paragraph from a book which addressed this directly.

All I can suggest is reading more from Volek and Phinney, if possible reading their books, and also using Internet searches.
There is plenty of evidence out there, but it is a contentious subject with plenty of conflicting advice and plenty of people with their own dietary plans for sale at a price.
As a Type 2 diabetic I am very aware of the effect of carbohydrates and the benefits of eating very few carbohydrates and relying on ketones for energy. Others follow a similar eating plan for the exercise and stamina benefits.

It might be useful to research ultra marathon runners who are reportedly turning to ketogenic diets and fuelling to enable multi-day long distance running.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

LittleGreyCat wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 8:09pm
Jdsk wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 7:59pm
LittleGreyCat wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 7:53pmScientists such as Volek and Phinney provide a research background to this.
As above, I'd be very interested in any studies demonstrating that this prevents the bonk or anything similar.
I believe that yesterday I posted a paragraph from a book which addressed this directly.

All I can suggest is reading more from Volek and Phinney, if possible reading their books, and also using Internet searches.
There is plenty of evidence out there, but it is a contentious subject with plenty of conflicting advice and plenty of people with their own dietary plans for sale at a price.
That's why I was asking for studies, not opinions or paragraphs from books or dietary plans.

I don't think that there is plenty of evidence, but I could be wrong. You've advocated this and you've got access to those books: how about citing the three best studies so that we can see how good that evidence is?

Jonathan
Nessie23
Posts: 91
Joined: 13 Sep 2020, 1:19pm
Location: Warwickshire

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Nessie23 »

JDSK: I usually enjoy your informative contributions and ‘guess’ you are medically/scientifically qualified which may explain your incessant requests for evidence (4 times in this thread). I, and I suspect others (possibly the OP?) are reluctant to respond to the topic as wish to avoid a forensic examination of statements on a cycling forum. I am interested in the ‘Keto diet wrt cycling’ and have dabbled with it myself to good effect (steady weight loss not impairing cycling performance) and am keen to learn more from other contributors. However, I do not wish to be scrutinised on every statement. After all science /medicine cannot explain every interaction within the human body and individual experience is valid.
PH
Posts: 13099
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by PH »

LittleGreyCat wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 7:53pm With respect, and I am aware that we are drifting between science and faith, but are you sure that you didn't enter ketosis?
No, I don't know that, and I'm not particularly interested in finding out.
We headed down this rabbit hole with you saying
Eating keto style means that there aren't any "quick fix" refuelling options like sweet tea and cake.
The benefits are mainly in stamina and lack of "bonk".
I was responding that for many of us, who are not eating keto or any other specific diet, don't require this frequent refuelling either.
rareposter
Posts: 1964
Joined: 27 Aug 2014, 2:40pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by rareposter »

LittleGreyCat wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 7:53pm
All I know is that I am usually in dietary ketosis and this allows me to usually ride without refuelling when others feel the need to stop and eat.
Where on earth is the fun in that?! Love a good cafe stop. :-)
The OP is planning on 50-mile days - plenty of time to enjoy some sightseeing and a cafe stop or two.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

Nessie23 wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 11:08amI am interested in the ‘Keto diet wrt cycling’ and have dabbled with it myself to good effect (steady weight loss not impairing cycling performance) and am keen to learn more from other contributors. However, I do not wish to be scrutinised on every statement. After all science /medicine cannot explain every interaction within the human body and individual experience is valid.
The point under discussion wasn't about what anyone's interested in or wants to try out or any personal experience. It was the suggestion that there was some "scientific background" or "research" showing that being "fat adapted" prevented the bonk.

So I asked for the studies that provided that "scientific background" or "research" evidence.

The response to date suggests that there aren't any. But it's easy to prove me wrong if there are...

Jonathan
Jamesh
Posts: 2963
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jamesh »

I cannot see that running on fats or proteins for 14 days is entirely helpful.

I don't think you need to modify your diet in anyway.

I did it in 8 days and ate my usual diet just more of it.

One of the great joys of lejog is tasting local food as you go. As you are not racing through then you have the time to do it.

Perhaps one think I would take is some sports drink to stop cramp at the end of a long day.

Keep it simple and enjoy.

Cheers James
User avatar
TrevA
Posts: 3545
Joined: 1 Jun 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by TrevA »

Perhaps the Keto discussion could be moved to a Separate thread, perhaps in the Health and Fitness section?

One of the best things that I found on my JOGLE, was sampling the local beers, as we progressed down the country. One of my favourites was the Skye Breweries Red Cuillin that I had in Bonar Bridge.

Another bonus is that you work up a healthy appetite and can easily polish off a 2 or 3 course meal in the evening, and not worry about putting on weight. Again, you can sample local dishes - I had Cranachan at Drumnadrochit and we stayed at a West Indian restaurant in Shap, where I had Jambalaya. We had an Eat as much as you like Curry in Whaley.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Time required to train for (gentle) JOGLE

Post by Jdsk »

TrevA wrote: 19 Apr 2021, 2:54pm Perhaps the Keto discussion could be moved to a Separate thread, perhaps in the Health and Fitness section?
That's a good idea.

Jonathan
Post Reply