Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Specific board for this popular undertaking.
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mjr
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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby mjr » 17 Sep 2018, 4:30pm

mattsccm wrote:This lot came through the Forest of Dean last week. Every single person who came across them, both cyclist and "civilian" commented on the awful riding skills. Great long chains

Great long chains... remember that...
mattsccm wrote:with no gaps are a great way of getting motorists backs up.
Don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of cyclist rights

:lol:

mattsccm wrote:Virtually no sensible group riding at all. In some case riding 3 abreast, strangely on the long straights where passing could happen,

Even with the widest standard single carriageway lane width of about 5m, motorists still need to use the oncoming lane to overtake safely and so the cyclists' formation is basically irrelevant, so the main thing 3 abreast does is make the "great long chains" shorter and easier to pass - so if passing could happen, why is it a problem that they had made the groups shorter? Or do you mean that there weren't gaps in the oncoming lane traffic but motorists could have close-passed them in-lane if they were riding single file?
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charliepolecat
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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby charliepolecat » 17 Sep 2018, 4:50pm

I think all 'organised' or charity rides create their own set of chaotic mass movement on the roads. A local one to me has 13,000 riders for 160 miles over two days in the Spring and the only way that ever works is to have loads of paid police at each intersection and police outriders keeping the motorists at bay. The only thing going for it from a public relations is the 'charity' moniker. No question though that the driving public do not like it one bit - even if it is only one weekend a year. I suspect all of us when driving adopt a 'right' to drive freely as fast as we can even if it is to get to the next bar, or pub.

The Deloitte Ride at least gives those who would not otherwise attempt it, the chance to do so and ride their bikes for 900+ miles, and we can't fault them for doing that.

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby Paulatic » 17 Sep 2018, 6:10pm

mjr is right riding 3 abreast will theoretically make the group shorter. If that group is still longer than a HGV with 40’ trailer it’s a vehicle that would have an escort on the roads.
Bear in mind it also makes visibility along the road to look for oncoming traffic a lot trickier. Comparable to passing a Fiat Panda or a Combine Harvester. Which is easiest? And if you’re driving a Combine Harvester along a road ( which I’ve done) wouldn’t it be good if you could transform it into Fiat Panda between the fields. :D
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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby rareposter » 17 Sep 2018, 7:37pm

There is a HUGE range of ability and experience on the event. Some people were very strong riders but had come off a background of Wattbike, Zwift, CrossFit etc so although they had the power and fitness they had little in the way of finesse and that needed managing. Some have signed up to it in a drunken haze or because of a charity close to them and they don't have much in the way of fitness or group-riding but they're passionate and dedicated and committed and will give it their best shot. Some are "traditional" club riders who want to do LEJOG but don't have friends, relatives, clubmates etc to sacrifice 2 weeks of leave to do the same thing at the same time. In fact I saw quite a few riders who were more than happy to basically ride by themselves - one in fact said he hated the whole group ride thing although that apparently hadn't put him off doing it for 5 years!

That climb in the photo up there is The Lecht up in the Cairngorms. #1, it comes about 8 miles into the route so riders haven't had the chance to spread out, #2, it's 7 - 7.30am on a Saturday morning in the Cairngorms - there was no traffic.

It is a genuinely fascinating event - you meet an incredible range of people from all backgrounds and walks of life, the "RAB Bubble" that they talk about is a real thing where everyone bonds, supports and encourages everyone else, egos are (mostly) put to one side and it rarely appeals to the Strava Warrior so it's really inclusive. The camping is more glamping really - tents are put up and taken down for you and there are full facilites like drying room, laundry, showers, toilets, catering - in fact the catering is genuinely second to none, many of the return customers cite the event catering as one of their main reasons for coming back. On the route itself there's mechanical and medical support, feed stations. It just takes the logistics out of the ride - to some people that's a good thing, some people on here would hate that but everyone is entitled to their view and opinion!

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby FasterFerret » 17 Sep 2018, 8:24pm

mjr wrote:Even with the widest standard single carriageway lane width of about 5m, motorists still need to use the oncoming lane to overtake safely and so the cyclists' formation is basically irrelevant, so the main thing 3 abreast does is make the "great long chains" shorter and easier to pass - so if passing could happen, why is it a problem that they had made the groups shorter? Or do you mean that there weren't gaps in the oncoming lane traffic but motorists could have close-passed them in-lane if they were riding single file?


This is the usual point where I disagree with riding 3 abreast.

2 points for me.

Personal view, and whilst I get the point about shortening the group, I don't see how the outside rider can get enough room from passing traffic. I bang on about getting enough space from passing traffic, so I think that I would be hypocritical to ride 3 aside and expect 1.5m passing room on most of the UK's roads. Just because they are on the other side of the centre line does not mean 1.5m.

I also think (because, unlike many people who haven't bothered to read it since they passed their test years ago, I have read it recently) that if it says 'no more than 2 abreast' in the Highway Code then it should be no more than 2 abreast. Yes, advisory, no not the law. But it is there in black and white (unlike a specified passing distance), to argue against it and/or to ride 3 abreast, not thin out etc etc just gives people an excuse in my book.

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby mattsccm » 17 Sep 2018, 9:39pm

Methinks mjr has an axe to grind?
3 abreast goes against the highway code and thus whilst sensible in the right place is largely wrong and most definitely a good idea in the publics eye.
I am fully aware that a wide group is shorter thank you. I don't think I said anything else.
Of course 2 abreast means that cars need to use the other lane! I should bloody well hope so and am bloody minded enough to make it happen. A group ride should be a compact block with consideration for all. Country roads mean that 2 wide with a decent gap beside the verge and no elbow banging ends up with the outside rider roughly in primary position. And so it should be!
This event was like a grand tour trying to catch a break away. The whole lane wide in places making idiotic riders vulnerable and cycling liable to criticism and half a mile long where it should have had some gaps. As pointed out, if this was a vehicle it would have out riders or what ever.

No crowd control whatso ever.

What can be expected from a commercial organisation ? I'd like to think better.
Finally I take exception to the assumption of my views and beliefs. As, in this case it is 180 degrees opposite to the case.

Like it or not, in the situation I am referring to the riders were a great example of everything the idiotic antis are so vocal about. It was embassing to explain to friends that many these people were participants in the same activity as my self.
Frustration vented. Off to the technical section where its less subjective. :D

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby FasterFerret » 17 Sep 2018, 10:08pm

rareposter wrote:
It is a genuinely fascinating event - you meet an incredible range of people from all backgrounds and walks of life, the "RAB Bubble" that they talk about is a real thing where everyone bonds, supports and encourages everyone else, egos are (mostly) put to one side and it rarely appeals to the Strava Warrior so it's really inclusive. The camping is more glamping really - tents are put up and taken down for you and there are full facilites like drying room, laundry, showers, toilets, catering - in fact the catering is genuinely second to none, many of the return customers cite the event catering as one of their main reasons for coming back. On the route itself there's mechanical and medical support, feed stations. It just takes the logistics out of the ride - to some people that's a good thing, some people on here would hate that but everyone is entitled to their view and opinion!


Nice to get a view from someone who has actually done it. The friends of mine that did it probably fell into the categories that you mention, they enjoyed it.

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby Paulatic » 17 Sep 2018, 10:41pm

rareposter wrote:
That climb in the photo up there is The Lecht up in the Cairngorms. #1, it comes about 8 miles into the route so riders haven't had the chance to spread out, #2, it's 7 - 7.30am on a Saturday morning in the Cairngorms - there was no traffic.


Thanks for identifying the climb.
#1 So it’s OK to ride in this manner for at least the first 8 mls?
#2 RAB have a crystal ball and can predict traffic volumes? No I doubt it, they were lucky there was no traffic.
Strathdon to Cock Bridge is 14 mls , isn’t the Lecht after that?
The picture was taken at 7:49am so still no traffic then?
They’ve been on the road since 6:30 and there’s been no traffic?
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kanvaskeating
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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby kanvaskeating » 17 Sep 2018, 11:51pm

I just bailed after 2 miserable days of the deloitte lejog
Mass event on paper sounded good but the reality is your with alot of selfish people. Such as people who wake up at 3am and decide nobody should sleep if they can't
Generators running through the night which I couldn't sleep through. Sycophantic riders more interested in their feats of charity raising than sharing a nod let alone a good morning.
A route designed to move 800 plus riders like cattle through the country missing out on the most amazing villages and views..
For me It needs to be done unsupported that's just my opinion.
I felt like I had joined a cult and I was cut down by fellow riders every time I voiced an opinion that dared threaten the deloitte loyal followers.
A bubble was talked about but I didn't see one I've happily joined many riders on sportives and the occasional audax but on this event I struggled to find angrier willing to chat or draft for a few miles.
Expensive yes. Food just ok. Facilities good..tents bad.chance of sleeping unlikely.

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby FasterFerret » 18 Sep 2018, 10:23am

kanvaskeating wrote:I just bailed after 2 miserable days of the deloitte lejog


That's a lot of money to lay out for two days. Did you get any money back?

rareposter
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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby rareposter » 18 Sep 2018, 11:18am

Paulatic wrote:Thanks for identifying the climb.
#1 So it’s OK to ride in this manner for at least the first 8 mls?
#2 RAB have a crystal ball and can predict traffic volumes? No I doubt it, they were lucky there was no traffic.
Strathdon to Cock Bridge is 14 mls , isn’t the Lecht after that?
The picture was taken at 7:49am so still no traffic then?
They’ve been on the road since 6:30 and there’s been no traffic?


I didn't say it was OK, I simply pointed out that releasing 750 riders onto a road, even over the course of an hour or so is still going to result in a bunching up on any major climb and The Lecht is a major climb! Some riders did it in about 7 minutes, there were plenty who took nearly 40+ minutes. By the way, plenty in that picture are stationary or walking.
And yes, RAB actually do thorough risk assessments, they ride and drive the routes in advance at the times the riders will be on them and they take advice from local Safety Advisory Groups, police etc. I saw no traffic on that climb other than the event support vehicles and if you look at it, you can see the sightlines are really very good indeed. I could have driven a bus up there without coming near anyone. One of the reason for chaging the route this year (to go via Edinburgh & Cairngorms rather than Glasgow & Glen Coe) was because of the traffic. Even the previous day going over Spittal of Glenshee there was virtually nothing on the roads, saw hardly any traffic.

3-abreast is a funny one - the HC states "SHOULD NEVER" without actually going so far as to ban it outright because a) it's simply unenforceable and b) there are occasions where it WILL happen. Plenty of times I've been out riding (alone or in groups) and passed or been passed by a group and it's unrealistic to expect a group to single out every time they pass a lone rider, or pull out to pass a parked car or obstacle on the left. Consider what happens in a car - you overtake someone (or pull out to pass an obstruction), you are effectively 3 or 4 abreast for a short time! If you're going through any village, town, city etc you'll be pulling out or pulling in to allow passage of vehicles. Try replacing that oncoming Tesco home delivery van in your mind with 6 riders, 3-abreast. No difference in size is there?! From what I saw the vast majority of riders were pretty well behaved but there are occasions when groups are catching, passing etc or when riders swerve out to avoid something or even when viewed from behind and an untidy line of 2-abreast actually appears to be wider.

I've worked on the event for 4 years as one of the chaperones / Ride Leaders so I get to see both sides of it - the rider view and experience and the work behind the scenes that goes into it. There are many aspects of it that I like, there are some that I'm not so much a fan of but can "adapt to" or put up with. I fully understand that the event will not appeal to everyone but I also don't especially get the "giving cyclists a bad name" rubbish or the disruption. One day a year. That's it. Compared to the tens of thousands of hours of cumulative disruption caused daily by drivers.

By the way, outside Ludlow, we came across a 2-vehicle RTA that had just happened. No cyclists involved in any way (so it wasn't a misjudged overtake to pass these vast hoards of 3-abreast riders...), it was simply bad driving in wet conditions. The first group of cyclists on scene one was Fire & Rescue, one was a paramedic and one was a doctor. Thanks to the ride, the relevant knowledge and medical services were on scene in literally seconds.

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby FasterFerret » 18 Sep 2018, 12:36pm

rareposter wrote:3-abreast is a funny one - the HC states "SHOULD NEVER" without actually going so far as to ban it outright because a) it's simply unenforceable and b) there are occasions where it WILL happen. Plenty of times I've been out riding (alone or in groups) and passed or been passed by a group and it's unrealistic to expect a group to single out every time they pass a lone rider, or pull out to pass a parked car or obstacle on the left. Consider what happens in a car - you overtake someone (or pull out to pass an obstruction), you are effectively 3 or 4 abreast for a short time! If you're going through any village, town, city etc you'll be pulling out or pulling in to allow passage of vehicles. Try replacing that oncoming Tesco home delivery van in your mind with 6 riders, 3-abreast. No difference in size is there?! From what I saw the vast majority of riders were pretty well behaved but there are occasions when groups are catching, passing etc or when riders swerve out to avoid something or even when viewed from behind and an untidy line of 2-abreast actually appears to be wider.



Rule 66
You should

keep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear
keep both feet on the pedals
never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends
not ride close behind another vehicle
not carry anything which will affect your balance or may get tangled up with your wheels or chain
be considerate of other road users, particularly blind and partially sighted pedestrians. Let them know you are there when necessary, for example, by ringing your bell if you have one. It is recommended that a bell be fitted.


I am a pragmatist, I have also ridden that route albeit coming the other way. Yes it is very quiet on the traffic front probably even more so on a Sunday morning. So if you are 3 or 4 abreast and you can see for miles and nothing is coming personally I don't see that as I problem (if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it does it still make a sound?), as long as if/when the sightline changes and/or other traffic appears action is taken (thinning out, breaking the pack to allow leapfrogging). I am not in a position to know or comment on whether that happens or not.

My non-RAB related 'beef' is that there seems to be a good number of people trying to justify riding 3 abreast - including a graphic that is doing the rounds - saying that it is safer for everyone. I disagree.

As I have said in my post above, in most situations riding 3 abreast, the outside rider is going to be close passed by a motorist even if they have moved right across as far as they can into the other carriageway - because most roads aren't very wide and most cars have got wider over the years.

I don't like the fact that this looks like a mixed message - effectively going against the 1.5m narrative that I personally would like to continue to get traction.

And BTW riding is different to passing there are rules for passing - this comaprison is like saying you can never overtake because you would be going the wrong way down the carriageway.

As pointed out in this article:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/surr ... ists-48577

The police can and sometimes do act on careless & inconsiderate riding

CARELESS & INCONSIDERATE RIDING: If a person rides a cycle, on a road, without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road, is guilty of an offence. [sic] £1,000 FINE

A Police spokesperson said that this action was taken due to “quite a lot of anti-social cycling in the area.” When asked to confirm what anti-social cycling was they said it applied to those who were riding more than two abreast, or in big groups, and causing cars to slow down.


So back to one of my original question, that can only be answered by someone from or has done the event:

"What kind of briefing they get about thinning out and breaking into groups to allow cars to leapfrog.?"

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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby mjr » 18 Sep 2018, 2:39pm

FasterFerret wrote:My non-RAB related 'beef' is that there seems to be a good number of people trying to justify riding 3 abreast - including a graphic that is doing the rounds - saying that it is safer for everyone. I disagree.

As I have said in my post above, in most situations riding 3 abreast, the outside rider is going to be close passed by a motorist even if they have moved right across as far as they can into the other carriageway - because most roads aren't very wide and most cars have got wider over the years.

I don't like the fact that this looks like a mixed message - effectively going against the 1.5m narrative that I personally would like to continue to get traction.

Disagree all you like but it's illogical because the facts are that the standard lane width is 3.7m, centre line is 0.2m and a typical car is 2m wide, so a car plus 1.5m fits completely in a lane, so as long as the cyclists are in their lane, it's basically irrelevant what formation they're riding in.

The stuff about riding single file in places where motorists shouldn't overtake is yet another bit of bad advice to cyclists in the Highway Code which can be held against them on the roads and in court. It should be removed at next revision because it devalues and obscures the good bits of the Code.

Someone earlier asked if I had an axe to grind. I feel that's a bit rich. I'm not the one coming onto a ride thread to raise the same old chestnuts thrown at almost every group ride and busy cycle-commuting route!
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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby mjr » 18 Sep 2018, 2:53pm

FasterFerret wrote:I also think (because, unlike many people who haven't bothered to read it since they passed their test years ago, I have read it recently) that if it says 'no more than 2 abreast' in the Highway Code then it should be no more than 2 abreast. Yes, advisory, no not the law. But it is there in black and white (unlike a specified passing distance),

No, the passing distance is specified in a full colour illustration!

to argue against it and/or to ride 3 abreast, not thin out etc etc just gives people an excuse in my book.

I agree, but that's all it is: an excuse. An excuse to rant about something which causes almost no harm!
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FasterFerret
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Re: Deloitte Ride Across Britain ( 2011 - ongoing )

Postby FasterFerret » 18 Sep 2018, 3:33pm

mjr wrote:]
Disagree all you like but it's illogical because the facts are that the standard lane width is 3.7m, centre line is 0.2m and a typical car is 2m wide, so a car plus 1.5m fits completely in a lane, so as long as the cyclists are in their lane, it's basically irrelevant what formation they're riding in.


I'm not a road engineer, I have not measured many roads. You may have better information than I do on this. But it does seem to me that we have inherited (from the Romans I assume?), a fairly mixed bag of road sizes.

Google tells me that:

"The 2011 edition of the AASHTO green book (ref. 831) says:

“Lane widths of 2.7 to 3.6 m [9 to 12 ft] are generally used, with a 3.6-m [12-ft] lane predominant on most high-speed, high-volume highways”"


Google also tells me that standard road widths were only introduced in 1993, so I guess that the roads built before then were to a different standard to the 3.7m that you quote? I don't know, just what I found 'on the internet'.

But I would agree with you, in the case where there is actually enough tarmac between whatever paint, cats eyes, overhanging hedges trees or other things that eat into this road width, to leave 1.5m between the cyclist and the overtaking vehicle then it is 'happy days' for everyone.

However, my experience, FWIW, is that 'round here' the majority of the roads that you actually would want to cycle on aren't that wide. We certainly have some national speed limit A roads that meet this 3.7m, but I'll leave those to other people thanks.

So, if you want a country-wide policy that applies to all roads, I don't think that it would be sensible to base it on the concept of a 'standard lane width' which in reality does not actually seem to be very standard.

I will happily stand corrected if I am completely off beam on this.