JOGLE/LEJOG Queries

[Pedro85]

Hi all,

Myself and a friend are planning to JOGLE mid-August 2012.
Neither of us are experienced cyclists but are both fairly fit and confident.
I was just hoping to get advice on a few points:
• Equipment – I a road bike/hybrid better?
• Are there any typical roads with bad surfaces?
• Will panniers be a big help (as opposed to a rucksack)?
• How many calories are needed a day approx..?
• Is a 12 day target realistic?
• Which parts of the body take the most punishment (I am mainly concerned as I had ACL knee surgery 3 years ago but have been playing sport OK for 2 years)?
• Are the B&Bs along the way reasonably priced?
• How much have people paid for a train to Wick?
If you could help answer any of these questions I would be very grateful.

Thank you,

Pete

[robgul]

See www.cycle-endtoend.org.uk - lots of resources, stories from others etc ... and list your ride on the calendar

Rob

[bearonabike]

Some thoughts:

12 days is pretty quick without the cycling miles in the legs. It can easily be done, but get riding soon!

Go to your local bike shop to get personal advice about which bike & set up will be best for you - and particularly your knee. I'd always choose a road bike over a hyrid, but that's personal preference. Road may be better for a quickish ride which 12 days is.

You'd be bonkers to use a rucksack!

Calories might be 5 - 6,000 per day, maybe more if you're carrying your kit. Eat and drink lots and often.

I found most road surfaces OK until I got to the Lake District where they'd forgotten to go over the tarmac with a steamroller. As they had in chunks of Scotland! A bit uncomfortable, slows you down, but not too bad.

Hope this helps. Others may think differently!

[cmlstratton]

This time last year when I suggested doing my 'JOGLE over 12 days with support' a number of people said I was being over ambitious given I chose a 'long route' (inc Dunnet Head, The Lizard and Arran 1,050m). Whilst I may have proved them wrong and had 1/2 a day to spare there was considerable wisdom in their words.

Back then I naively thought 85m a day would equate to 6.5-7hrs cycling so leave latest 9am be finished by 5pm latest so I could enjoy the evenings with my daughter who was driving my car as support. Well I hadn't reckoned on quite nasty, nasty, headwinds (& rain), 5x punctures, a ride partner who had to stop and have a rest every 1-2hrs!! The result was that the longest 'on-the-road' day was close to 12hrs and most about 10hrs despite an 'average moving speed' of circa 12mph. This meant by the time I finished there was just enough time to get showered, changed, go out for dinner, faff* ready for the next day (* a mandatory male habit of kit preparation). So did I do or see the things I had hoped with my daughter = no.

Of course I did enjoy the ride (OK I learnt to hate bridges = see blog, and headwinds) but on the whole it was a wonderful sense of achievement despite not being quite the journey of my dreams. Could I contemplate doing it at that speed with panniers absolutely not unless I packed extremely light and was prepared to ride from dawn to dusk.

Would I do it again? Probably but definitely a LEJOG to lessen the chances of headwinds, alone so I can start when I'd like, stop when I want and camp if I didn't make it to here I hoped. Of course you can do it if you are driven enough to want to do it which would mean an awful lot of training, choosing a fast (A road type route (IMO)) and probably having little time for anything other than eat, cycle, sleep in various combinations!!

Good luck

Charlie
PS I never, never gave enough consideration to just how much time I required for training. 3 evenings most weeks and long rides one day a weekend then became both days so the price my family paid was much, much higher than my simply taking 2 weeks out. Be warned if you have a family.

[Pedro85]

Thanks for replies.
I was thinking of 12 days as an early estimate so maybe 12-14 would give us a little extra flexibility (I don't want to take more than 2 weeks off work ideally!).

I will be buying a bike pretty soon and will begin traning and am still weighing up the advantages/drawbacks of LEJOG v JOGLE.
I live In Bristol so was thinking it would be nice to finish and then hop on a train home quickly but are the prevailing winds really that big a factor?

Another thought - is there room in regular panniers for a sleeping bag/tent or are B&Bs/Youth Hostels the realistic alternative?

Thanks again,

Pete

[horizon]

Another thought - is there room in regular panniers for a sleeping bag/tent or are B&Bs/Youth Hostels the realistic alternative?

There's plenty of room on a bike for whatever you want to take, including a kitchen sink and possibly a small TV. Panniers, racks, trailers, bar bags, frame bags all soak it up. You can safely and comfortably load a bike far beyond the point at which you can cycle fast over long distances - the problem is getting it up the hills. As cmlstraton says, 12 days with any sort of weight will make life very difficult. If you do decide to camp, weight will be everything. Although I have never done LEJOG, I have done reasonably long distances carrying camping gear: my opinion is that 14 days is the cut off point for unsupported camping (though I'm sure there are hardy souls who have done it in less. )

[Pedro85]

Thanks Horizon!

We are trying to arrange accomodation with friends and family at various stops in England, I guess we will just have to find what we can in Scotland and I think you are right in that hilly Scotland/Devon?Cornwall call for a light load!

Cheers,

Pete

[phil parker]

Don't be too concerned about the length of time - 12 days is easily manageable as a challenge, but might take away some of the sight-seeing leisure as you focus on making progress. I have done it in both directions in a 10-day and 11-day stint, camping unsupported, and in some pretty bad weather mid-March and mid-September, with head winds in both directions.

There are some advantages to camping, which include getting an early start on the road (I normally set off at 7am and usually arrive mid-afternoon), economy (B&Bs soon add up over a 12-day period) and flexibility in that you don't have to pre-book and can vary your original plan if you need to do so because of weather or mechanical faults.

I prefer a road bike although it will be less comfortable the more racy it is. Don't even consider a rucksack - invest in a rack and a good set of panniers and maybe a handlebar bag as well. All my clothing, equipment and camping gear including the weight of the panniers/bag comes to around 15 - 16 kgs. I found the road surfaces the worst in Scotland, but more uncomfortable than bike damaging.

As mentioned, training will take up a lot of your time and I would advise a sensible structure - you won't find anyone complaining of carrying out too much training beforehand. I find day 4 or day 5 to be the most tiring and then you become conditioned to the daily routine. Having a good routine is paramount and not procrastinating on any admin chores like daily bike maintenance and washing/drying clothes etc. Sustenance and rest is equally important and I would agree with the other poster who suggested 5 - 6k calories per day.

Both directions are equally pleasurable and in your position from Bristol I probably would do JOGLE and just expect some headwinds for the final 3 days. Last year on a different trip, coming back from Fort William we had about 3 - 4 days of tail winds heading south and it was magical!

Good Luck!

[horizon]

12 days is easily manageable as a challenge

...which is a sort of oxymoron...

I still think that for the average person without huge preparation or lots of cycling experience 14 days minimum is a good rule of thumb - 85 mpd loaded (with as you suggest a realistic 16kg) is quite a hike. What you describe is someone who is trained, focused and already knows how to organise their day - this could well be the OP? Anyway, who am I to speak as I haven't done it - I would want three weeks minimum

[Big T]

We took 18 riding days days for our JOGLE (plus a rest day), took far too much stuff (you tend to fill your panniers) and stayed in B&B's. We budgetted £100 a day for the 2 of us for food and B & B's which proved to be about right (so we spent close to £2000). Camping is cheaper but you have to carry your tent and sleeping bag. YH's are an option but they're not much cheaper than B&B's these days.

Undercarraige takes a fair bit of punishment, but I didn't get any saddle sores. Shower as soon as finished, clean shorts every day and a Brooks B17 saddle worked for me. My wife developed knee trouble around halfway but managed to carry on with the help of painkillers and a support bandage.

Eat and drink plenty and often. We usually had full breakfast, sandwiches for lunch and a proper evening meal, with an occasional cake or ice cream stop thrown in. We used to drink plain water and about 2-3 litres a day each, more when it was hot.

[phil parker]

12 days is easily manageable as a challenge

...which is a sort of oxymoron...

I still think that for the average person without huge preparation or lots of cycling experience 14 days minimum is a good rule of thumb - 85 mpd loaded (with as you suggest a realistic 16kg) is quite a hike. What you describe is someone who is trained, focused and already knows how to organise their day - this could well be the OP? Anyway, who am I to speak as I haven't done it - I would want three weeks minimum

I didn't intent to write an oxymoron, but I didn't want to understate the task neither. I found completion in 11 days 'comfortable' yet I know it is a challenge for most and as you pointed out the trip wasn't new to me and I was trained and focused. Your quoted figure of 14 days maybe a good benchmark, one with which I wouldnt disagree, but I wanted to offer the OP an alternative POV. 85 miles can be a long day in Devon & Cornwall and more physically demanding than a 100+ mile day through Cheshire and up to the Lakes. However, as I mentioned in a previous thread, experience is what you get after you could have done with it! I have a new tour of Cornwall coming up for my next learning experience!

It is, as well, horses for courses. When I set off from Inverness in 2010 (rather that get the train further north) I accompanied a couple of Geordie lads who were on their final day of a 5-day LEJOG and they were absolutely 'hanging out'. They took my back wheel for a few miles of comfort before they dropped back a bit. They were fully supported and said they wouldn't want to to try it my way, camping unsupported, but I very much doubt I would have enjoyed it their way I.e. in 5 days. Maybe when I was in my 20s?

As an after thought, if I had more spare time, I would just as hard and for just as long each day, only I would make the journey longer and more scenic.

[horizon]

phil: although we are splitting hairs over the days, I think it's good to get a sense of what is or isn't possible and why, so your POV is really interesting. What is the tipping point? Is it weight or distance or the weather? What about fitness - is cycling experience more important than general fitness? Does the type of bike really matter that much etc etc. My impression is that most people take on LEJOG specifically as a challenge (you don't ride through Preston without good reason) so your "oxymoron" actually makes complete sense - what you are saying is that if you see it as a challenge it will be more than OK. Another point is that LEJOG fits nicely into a two week holiday but you need a couple of days to get there and back, hence the pressure to bring it down to say 12 days.

[cycloret]

I saw my LEJOG more as an adventure consisting of a series of interesting day rides rather than just being a challenge.
I was only repeating in terms of miles per day what I knew I was capable of. Regarding your knee, I'd be thinking this shouldn't be a problem. With cycling you’re not going to experience sideways forces like you would playing football, rugby or combat sports.
Some time ago when I've sustained slight knee injury whilst skiing, I've found cycling excellent therapy. That said, on my LEJOG I did have a bit of right knee pain on a day in Scotland. I think I was pushing too hard. After I went up a gear and allowed my left leg to share more of the work things improved.

Fortunately I wasn't bothered with headwinds but I did become wary of rivers. Rivers flow in valleys so that nice free downhill run to the bridge will sooner or later be followed by a climb out of the valley on the far side.

Michael's 2010 LEJOG
http://www.cycle-endtoend.org.uk/index. ... &Itemid=93

[phil parker]

phil: although we are splitting hairs over the days, I think it's good to get a sense of what is or isn't possible and why, so your POV is really interesting. What is the tipping point? Is it weight or distance or the weather? What about fitness - is cycling experience more important than general fitness? Does the type of bike really matter that much etc etc. My impression is that most people take on LEJOG specifically as a challenge (you don't ride through Preston without good reason) so your "oxymoron" actually makes complete sense - what you are saying is that if you see it as a challenge it will be more than OK. Another point is that LEJOG fits nicely into a two week holiday but you need a couple of days to get there and back, hence the pressure to bring it down to say 12 days.

Perhaps we're not splitting hairs over the time, but just categorizing the 'challenge' into our own personal perspectives? You're right, there are some interesting possibilities that branch into a plethora of questions. You have some interesting questions, which I can only answer from my personal experience and I accept it may differ and contrast from the experiences of others. Paying a total disregard to the average person - I don't believe a timeline can be attributed to the End-to-End as there are so many ways of executing the cycle ride. As an out-and-out human endeavour, the record stands at about 41 hours (and I will be corrected!) for an outright cycling specific athlete. Whilst we also know of determined people who are disabled or otherwise disadvantaged setting their own personal goals in their own time lines and abilities, and other cyclists who use the End-to-End distance to explore, sight see and adventure within their own personal parameters governed by finance and available time! These can take from 2 - 3 weeks or longer. You have made the pertinent point that some time lines are governed by this, be they 10, 12 or 14-day periods. Each have their own merit?

What is the tipping point? It is a combination of man, machine and method! This is further influenced by 'conditions'. I have a few bikes (don't we all?) and my chosen Roberts Audax Compact is probably slightly faster than your standard tourer i.e. Galaxy, Dalesman etc.; maybe less comfortable, but capable of covering up to 120 miles a day with 16 kgs of luggage in fair weather conditions i.e. no strong headwinds, on gentle rolling roads (not Devon & Cornwall!). At the other end of the scale - my Thorn Exp is much heavier, slower, but can carry much more equipment, be less affected by poor weather conditions, but I would only be comfortable covering 75 miles a day. However, my fitness may be exactly the same. What is fitness? (rhetorical question!) The ability to carry out any given task within a comfortable set of parameters. If Sir Chris Hoy challenged me to 10 laps around the track tomorrow - I am doomed (in less than a lap): but if I challenged him to a 150-mile unsupported cycle trip in appalling weather, tomorrow: I would win! Am I fitter than him? Of course not, but that's where the term 'conditioning' comes into it. Does experience matter? Yes, it does; not only with cycling, but with the suffering and the psychological advantage one can gain from having completed 'challenges' in adverse conditions, hence experience. And yes, they can transfer from one discipline to the other - I use my 'suffering' from previous high altitude mountaineering trips as a very similar parallel to the physical and mental stamina required to complete challenging cycling trips. And another 'quality' beneficial to complete the trip - put simply is: determination. This can make up for a certain, comparative lack of fitness or any equipment inferiority (a slower bike!).

Anyway - I've rambled on enough about this and I don't intend to argue with any protagonists. But I will read and digest other POVs! Time for another glass of wine!!!

[Pedro85]

Hi guys, thanks as always for your opinions.

I am 26, have completed various 10ks, a half marathon and a triathlon within the last 4 years. I play football 3 times a week and probably throw in a run as well.
Last summer I was commuting 5 miles up/down hills to work on an abomination of a second-hand bike so I CANNOT wait to buy a decent bike soon and see the difference!

All in all I consider myself very fit BUT not bike-fit, which I will hopefully put to rest over the coming months.

12 days will be hard work I have no doubt so I know we will need to be disciplined and try and get on the road for 8AM most days I expect.
As regards day lengths on initial calculatins I have planned in a few 80 mile days and a few 60 milers as well (esp. in Cornwall/Devon as I grew up there I am sure even a 50 mile day will be hard work.

Q - How long should a typical 80 mile day take (hard to estimate I know but as an estimate?).