Beryl Burton - The Greatest

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 5 Sep 2018, 10:27am

landsurfer wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:I always dislike someone being declared "the Greatest"

Yes she was an admirable woman, who achieved lots, but, is she the "Greatest"?


What about someone like Major Taylor who fought against prejudices and hardships that Burton certainly never faced.

Each athlete faces their own acheivements, challenges and problems, and has their own high and low points.


Let recognise them all as being "Great" without the need to belittle and discredit other athlete's achievements


No lets not .... She is up there in the greatest list ... with Alf Engers and John Woodburn, John Pritchard et al.
Lets identify the exceptional, the best, the standard to strive towards ..... those that will encourage others.
Jasmijn has encouraged my granddaughter ... we are not all the same .. some are exceptional .. lets celebrate that ..


Exactly the point.......the OP would have Beryl being the "Greatest" and relegating Alf Engers and John Woodburn, John Pritchard et al. to a secondary status.

That is the issue

bikepacker
Posts: 1930
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:08pm
Location: Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby bikepacker » 5 Sep 2018, 10:56am

Can I just deviate a little from the subject and ask: Does anyone know if Charlie, Beryl's husband, is still alive? It is just that I haven't seen him at Mildenhall for the last few years and he was a regular attendee.
There is your way. There is my way. But there is no "the way".

thirdcrank
Posts: 27586
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Sep 2018, 1:18pm

......
Last edited by thirdcrank on 15 Oct 2018, 8:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
Posts: 10305
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby pete75 » 5 Sep 2018, 1:51pm

There's also this a 20 minute film about Beryl made by YTV in 1986.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 5 Sep 2018, 1:58pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Spinners wrote:Greatest Women Cyclist - A very strong candidate.

Greatest sportsperson ever? No.

Who might be the greatest sportsperson ever?


Context..,

Apparently Sean Connery is the “Sexiest man in History”

One has to ask how many of those people knew how “sexy” Alexander the Great, any of the Caesar’s, Cassanova or the Marquis de Sade were

These claims and polls are and always will be populist and biased towards the r soond BT’s personal agenda

pete75
Posts: 10305
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby pete75 » 5 Sep 2018, 2:00pm

Cunobelin wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:I always dislike someone being declared "the Greatest"

Yes she was an admirable woman, who achieved lots, but, is she the "Greatest"?


What about someone like Major Taylor who fought against prejudices and hardships that Burton certainly never faced.

Each athlete faces their own acheivements, challenges and problems, and has their own high and low points.


Let recognise them all as being "Great" without the need to belittle and discredit other athlete's achievements


No lets not .... She is up there in the greatest list ... with Alf Engers and John Woodburn, John Pritchard et al.
Lets identify the exceptional, the best, the standard to strive towards ..... those that will encourage others.
Jasmijn has encouraged my granddaughter ... we are not all the same .. some are exceptional .. lets celebrate that ..


Exactly the point.......the OP would have Beryl being the "Greatest" and relegating Alf Engers and John Woodburn, John Pritchard et al. to a secondary status.

That is the issue


BB was comparable to Merckx in her dominance of the sport. The others mentioned weren't. They were good by British standards of the time. BB was very good by world standards.

User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 3340
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby pjclinch » 5 Sep 2018, 2:22pm

<yawn> So was she clearly better than Vos?

Oddly enough, this particular thread in "Women's cycling interests" doesn't appear to have raised the interest of many (any?) women whatsoever. I wonder why?
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

thirdcrank
Posts: 27586
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Sep 2018, 3:25pm

....
Last edited by thirdcrank on 15 Oct 2018, 8:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 5 Sep 2018, 3:48pm

pete75 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
No lets not .... She is up there in the greatest list ... with Alf Engers and John Woodburn, John Pritchard et al.
Lets identify the exceptional, the best, the standard to strive towards ..... those that will encourage others.
Jasmijn has encouraged my granddaughter ... we are not all the same .. some are exceptional .. lets celebrate that ..


Exactly the point.......the OP would have Beryl being the "Greatest" and relegating Alf Engers and John Woodburn, John Pritchard et al. to a secondary status.

That is the issue


BB was comparable to Merckx in her dominance of the sport. The others mentioned weren't. They were good by British standards of the time. BB was very good by world standards.


Which is again part of the issue......

there are those who would dispute this

Burton never won the Tour de France......

brynpoeth
Posts: 8413
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Sep 2018, 5:26pm

Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
Spinners wrote:Greatest Women Cyclist - A very strong candidate.

Greatest sportsperson ever? No.

Who might be the greatest sportsperson ever?


Context..,

Apparently Sean Connery is the “Sexiest man in History”

One has to ask how many of those people knew how “sexy” Alexander the Great, any of the Caesar’s, Cassanova or the Marquis de Sade were

These claims and polls are and always will be populist and biased towards the r soond BT’s personal agenda

What do female members think, if any read this? :wink:
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

brynpoeth
Posts: 8413
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Sep 2018, 5:27pm

BB was at the top for 25 years
Merckx dominated for fewer than ten
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

pete75
Posts: 10305
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby pete75 » 5 Sep 2018, 5:42pm

Cunobelin wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Exactly the point.......the OP would have Beryl being the "Greatest" and relegating Alf Engers and John Woodburn, John Pritchard et al. to a secondary status.

That is the issue


BB was comparable to Merckx in her dominance of the sport. The others mentioned weren't. They were good by British standards of the time. BB was very good by world standards.


Which is again part of the issue......

there are those who would dispute this

Burton never won the Tour de France......


A quite absurd statement. It's a men only event. She did however set an absolute record for an event ridden by both men and women. Is it the only time in sport where that has happened?

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 5 Sep 2018, 6:17pm

pete75 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
pete75 wrote:
BB was comparable to Merckx in her dominance of the sport. The others mentioned weren't. They were good by British standards of the time. BB was very good by world standards.


Which is again part of the issue......

there are those who would dispute this

Burton never won the Tour de France......


A quite absurd statement. It's a men only event. She did however set an absolute record for an event ridden by both men and women. Is it the only time in sport where that has happened?



Not at all, just a deliberate illustration of the absurdity of the "Greatest Sportsperson" claim.

Until 2015 synchronised swimming was female only, the Decathlon is male only at international level, in gymnastics, 2 out of the 6 disciplines are male only (vault, uneven bars, balance beam and floor), men have six events (floor, pommel horse, rings, vault, parallel bars and high bar).

It is not a level playing field, so comparison is divisive, and meaningless.

As with Sean Connery.... he may be the "sexiest man alive" but there are many who would not find hitting women "sexy"

"I don't think there is anything particularly wrong in hitting a woman, though I don't recommend you do it in the same way you hit a man."



As above, it will always be the fact that these claims and polls are and will always will be populist and biased towards the individual's personal agenda

mumbojumbo
Posts: 71
Joined: 1 Aug 2018, 8:18pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby mumbojumbo » 5 Sep 2018, 8:23pm

I find the claim that she is the greatest is laughable.For a single person to dominate for 25 years suggests there was little serious competition.Cycling is a minority sport.Several mediocre rowers have\switched from rowing to cycling with some success.I would suggest that versatile performers like CBFry,Ann Jones and Mary Rand need a mention,and who dare challenge Mike Tyson.Boult and Federer who have dominated even the competition from Holyfield,Gay and Murray.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 1852
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby The utility cyclist » 5 Sep 2018, 9:25pm

pjclinch wrote:<yawn> So was she clearly better than Vos?

Oddly enough, this particular thread in "Women's cycling interests" doesn't appear to have raised the interest of many (any?) women whatsoever. I wonder why?


Clearly she was, greater range, more longevity and more titles even despite the lack of opportunity compared to Vos and the fact Vos is a full time pro, also Vos has a more equal playing field than BB did when at European and World champs not to mention silly short races that were laughable even by today's shortened female road race standards which didn't suit Burton's strength and stamina.

Vos national road race champ 4, BB 12
Vos national TT champ 2, BB, 72 but let's call it the 25 BBAR titles to be fair as she could ride in multi events
Vos 3 times word RR champ, BB twice
Vos track WC 0 BB 5
Vos track national champs 0 BB 12
Vos endurance world records 0, BB 1

No contest really, you can't include races that BB would have never had chance to ride because they didn't exist and indeed that's as much down to the fortune for modern female riders (by comparison to BB ES day) as it is being a full time paid pro where you're not having t pick rhubarb and look after a child. The amount of fuss and fawning over Venus Williams coming back after having a baby is ridiculous, like she's the first women ever to do be back at the top of their sport:roll:
BB in today's modern era would be a world star beyond even the likes of Laura Kenny, she was one of those freaks of nature that come along once in a generation or two that no-one can truly explain, however there are others globally in other sports that are also candidates for GOAT sportspersons, it's impossible to compare realy but as I said BB is amongst the very very best. Oh and I don't count Merckx, a systematic dope cheat doesn't get in any list of 'greats' :x