Beryl Burton - The Greatest

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 12 Oct 2018, 9:40pm

cotterpins wrote:The real question is: "BB was the greatest sportsperson ever,. Perhaps we could possibly agree if we said Female Cyclist ever!



Nope.... there is still no direct comparison or measure that would validate such a claim.

cotterpins
Posts: 128
Joined: 6 Apr 2016, 9:38pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby cotterpins » 12 Oct 2018, 9:59pm

Cunobelin wrote:
cotterpins wrote:The real question is: "BB was the greatest sportsperson ever,. Perhaps we could possibly agree if we said Female Cyclist ever!



Nope.... there is still no direct comparison or measure that would validate such a claim.


I don't really have a personal opinion one way or another. She was just a talented cyclist as far as I am concerned.

Steady rider
Posts: 2119
Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Steady rider » 12 Oct 2018, 10:14pm

http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ritfiche ... tid=319289
In 1967 Mike McNamara did 276 miles in the Otley 12 hr and finished first in the men's event. That year he was 1st in the BAR. Berly was the only women to ride in the Women;s event, that followed the Men's event. She set off 1 minute behind the men's champion, passed him, and did 277 miles. I think I have these details correct, but others will correct me if I am mistaken. I don't think any other women has beaten the men's champion over a 12hr distance event. Both were great or strong rider.

There are other great cyclists and times change with equipment and circumstances. To try and pin-point who may have been the best relates to all sorts of factors and type of cycling, I would sooner say these people are all great champion without the guessing of who may have the best.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Oct 2018, 8:11am

cotterpins wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
cotterpins wrote:The real question is: "BB was the greatest sportsperson ever,. Perhaps we could possibly agree if we said Female Cyclist ever!



Nope.... there is still no direct comparison or measure that would validate such a claim.


I don't really have a personal opinion one way or another. She was just a talented cyclist as far as I am concerned.



No-one is disagreeing that she was exceptional, but was seethe "Greatest"?

But...as posted previously there are many women cyclists out there who have been exceptional

Its like the women who voted Sean Connery as the "Sexiest man in History"

How did they honestly compare him to any other male from Atilla the Hun, Alexander the Great, Thomas a'Beckett, Nelson Napoleon, Wellington, Fred Smith, John Bettlesmith (Edited) Silas Arbothnot (/edited)?

It has become a meaningless meme
Last edited by Cunobelin on 15 Oct 2018, 5:38pm, edited 1 time in total.

cotterpins
Posts: 128
Joined: 6 Apr 2016, 9:38pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby cotterpins » 13 Oct 2018, 5:26pm

The comment was: "BB was the greatest sportsperson ever". Great cyclist--Yes. Greatest sportsperon ever . . . that all down to personal opinion, which is mainly influenced by people's favourite sport.

brynpoeth
Posts: 8413
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby brynpoeth » 13 Oct 2018, 5:30pm

My favourite sport is cycling of course :wink:

Another great influence is the period one grew up or got interested: 1970s
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Oct 2018, 5:43pm

brynpoeth wrote:My favourite sport is cycling of course :wink:

Another great influence is the period one grew up or got interested: 1970s



Which is really the point

Is someone the "Greatest" because of personal bias and age?

User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 3340
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby pjclinch » 15 Oct 2018, 4:16pm

Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:My favourite sport is cycling of course :wink:

Another great influence is the period one grew up or got interested: 1970s



Which is really the point

Is someone the "Greatest" because of personal bias and age?


Until you have some objective measurement it'll be hard to take out personal bias. Age will just reflect in the particular set of biases. "Everyone knows" that the Beatles are the greatest pop band ever... Doesn't impress my son (born 2001) who doesn't see what all the fuss was about and would much rather listen to more recent fare.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

reohn2
Posts: 32302
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby reohn2 » 15 Oct 2018, 4:27pm

Cunobelin wrote:
cotterpins wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

Nope.... there is still no direct comparison or measure that would validate such a claim.


I don't really have a personal opinion one way or another. She was just a talented cyclist as far as I am concerned.



No-one is disagreeing that she was exceptional, but was seethe "Greatest"?

But...as posted previously there are many women cyclists out there who have been exceptional

Its like the women who voted Sean Connery as the "Sexiest man in History"

How did they honestly compare him to any other male from Atilla the Hun, Alexander the Great, Thomas a'Beckett, Nelson Napoleon, Wellington, Fred Smith, John Bettlesmith?

It has become a meaningless meme

You forgot Silas Arbothnot who lives just around the corner from us,he's a very hansom chappy indeed,even though I say so myself!
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

brynpoeth
Posts: 8413
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Oct 2018, 4:39pm

Maybe the greatest sportsperson is just a matter of opinion, like the best music (Beethoven) or literature (Sebald)
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 15 Oct 2018, 5:42pm

brynpoeth wrote:Maybe the greatest sportsperson is just a matter of opinion, like the best music (Beethoven) or literature (Sebald)


Reminds me of Stallone, Schwarzneggar and Willis arguing this fact, so they decided to make a documentary about their favourite, and let the public vote, Willis wanted to be Beethoven, Stallone wanted to be Handel, and Schwarnznegger stated "I'll be Bach!"

brynpoeth
Posts: 8413
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Oct 2018, 5:45pm

Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Maybe the greatest sportsperson is just a matter of opinion, like the best music (Beethoven) or literature (Sebald)


Reminds me of Stallone, Schwarzneggar and Willis arguing this fact, so they decided to make a documentary about their favourite, and let the public vote, Willis wanted to be Beethoven, Stallone wanted to be Handel, and Schwarnznegger stated "I'll be Bach!"

Beethoven said: 'Bach soll nicht Bach heissen, sondern Meer'/Bach should not be called Bach (stream) but Meer (ocean)
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8530
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby Cunobelin » 15 Oct 2018, 5:57pm

reohn2 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
cotterpins wrote:

I don't really have a personal opinion one way or another. She was just a talented cyclist as far as I am concerned.



No-one is disagreeing that she was exceptional, but was seethe "Greatest"?

But...as posted previously there are many women cyclists out there who have been exceptional

Its like the women who voted Sean Connery as the "Sexiest man in History"

How did they honestly compare him to any other male from Atilla the Hun, Alexander the Great, Thomas a'Beckett, Nelson Napoleon, Wellington, Fred Smith, John Bettlesmith?

It has become a meaningless meme

You forgot Silas Arbothnot who lives just around the corner from us,he's a very hansom chappy indeed,even though I say so myself!


I have amended my Heinous omission, and to add a bit of Game of Thrones Trivia.....

The Delightful Ygritte (" You know Nothing, Jon Snow") is played by a young lady called Rose Leslie, whose full name is in fact Rose Eleanor Arbuthnot-Leslie

reohn2
Posts: 32302
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby reohn2 » 15 Oct 2018, 6:30pm

Cunobelin wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

No-one is disagreeing that she was exceptional, but was seethe "Greatest"?

But...as posted previously there are many women cyclists out there who have been exceptional

Its like the women who voted Sean Connery as the "Sexiest man in History"

How did they honestly compare him to any other male from Atilla the Hun, Alexander the Great, Thomas a'Beckett, Nelson Napoleon, Wellington, Fred Smith, John Bettlesmith?

It has become a meaningless meme

You forgot Silas Arbothnot who lives just around the corner from us,he's a very hansom chappy indeed,even though I say so myself!


I have amended my Heinous omission, and to add a bit of Game of Thrones Trivia.....

The Delightful Ygritte (" You know Nothing, Jon Snow") is played by a young lady called Rose Leslie, whose full name is in fact Rose Eleanor Arbuthnot-Leslie

That's probably Silas' wife and explains why Mrs R2 doesn't like her :? :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 1852
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm

Re: Beryl Burton - The Greatest

Postby The utility cyclist » 15 Oct 2018, 8:43pm

Steady rider wrote:http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ritfiche.php?ritid=319289
In 1967 Mike McNamara did 276 miles in the Otley 12 hr and finished first in the men's event. That year he was 1st in the BAR. Berly was the only women to ride in the Women;s event, that followed the Men's event. She set off 1 minute behind the men's champion, passed him, and did 277 miles. I think I have these details correct, but others will correct me if I am mistaken. I don't think any other women has beaten the men's champion over a 12hr distance event. Both were great or strong rider.

There are other great cyclists and times change with equipment and circumstances. To try and pin-point who may have been the best relates to all sorts of factors and type of cycling, I would sooner say these people are all great champion without the guessing of who may have the best.

How would you consider Eileen Sheridan's 250.5 miles '12h' as a so called professional, done a good 14/15 years before Burton's record breaking ride on what you could easily say is an inferior machine, the men's record stood at 264.7.

Is there an argument that part of the reason Burton beat the men was because they were a weak field by comparison to any other period in history AND very importantly Sheridan was not allowed in the same field as men so had no-one to chase unlike Burton?
That's not an attempt to devalue the effort by Burton, it's one of the most superlative sporting efforts ever, but the men in the 60s had not pushed on, it was a big gap between McNamara beating the record the same day Burton beat him since the previous record in 1958. Also if you look at the records Burton was 'only' able to do 250.37 in 1959.