How to try and buy a bike

Puny but determined
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by Puny but determined »

Gosh, more questions than answers! I am 5ft 2 inches, 30 inch inside leg. My road bike is a Specialized Dolce XS, drop bars. For many years (probably more than I care to remember) I have toured on a cheapish Trek hybrid and done thousands of miles all around the world. It has done me fine but I thought I would treat myself in my old age to slightly lower gears (currently about 23 gear inches at best) and a lighter bike. Yes, 26 inch wheels would be good. It might be quite nice if I could touch the ground whilst having the saddle at the right height but I've long since got used to not being able to. I'm 55% sold on flat bars for touring but willing to be convinced otherwise, hence why I want to try a number of bikes in one location. It is this I am really after rather than suggestions of bikes to buy. I like the idea of writing a specification and sending it out. Thank you. The number of off the peg bikes with low enough gears and small enough frames makes that an easier choice. For info, Re SJS, I tried the Thorn Sherpa but decided, whilst the fit wasn't too bad, it is very heavy and the huge front stem is odd, although I expect this could be shortened. We didn't discuss custom made bikes as I'm thinking things would get very expensive. I should add that I am the type of cyclist who just slings my leg over the bike and goes somewhere rather than the nerdy 'I have all the latest gear' type. Perhaps there is a name for this. If it's rude, please don't tell me!
slowster
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by slowster »

Some thoughts:

1. Hybrids tend to be fairly light bikes, not least because they usually are not designed for heavily loaded touring. I think you might therefore find it difficult to buy a lighter touring bike. Although it's possible to buy titanium touring bikes (Spa do them as well) or to get a touring frame custom built in a lightweight expensive steel tubeset, lightening the frame is not necessarily the best option. You might do better with a more standard frame and saving weight on components or on the kit you take with you (less of it or more lightweight versions).

Bikes like the Ridgeback Expedition and Thorn Sherpa are expedition bikes, and will inevitably be heavier.

2. If you are happy with the position on your hybrid and want flat bars again, then take your measurements from that:
- saddle height
- horizontal distance of front of saddle behind bottom bracket axle (although saddle lengths can vary, so this might necessarily assume the same saddle model)
- distance from front of saddle to stem clamp centre
- vertical drop/rise of saddle above or below the bars/stem clamp

3. If you are comfortable on your hybrid and the frame is still in good condition, an alternative option might instead be to upgrade it. Modifying or replacing the existing drivetrain to have a 24 tooth inner chainring and fitting a cassette with 36 tooth largest sprocket should give you an ~18 inch bottom gear (as well as a ~20 inch second gear assuming the next sprocket is 32 teeth). If some of the components on it are unnecessarily heavy, you could similarly replace those, e.g. lighter but still strong wheels or a lighter rear rack etc.

If you took the 'upgrade and refine' approach, you might find that when it was time to retire the hybrid there would be no need for a complete new bike, just a new frame of your choice, because all the components could simply be transferred over to it.

4. If you are going to get a new bike, it seems to me that what would probably best fit your requirements is a classic touring bike (not an expedition bike). In your shoes therefore I would ask SJS for a test ride on a Club Tour. If nothing else it would give you another 'data point' for comparison and help you decide if that type of bike is what you are seeking (or at least if it is closer to what you are seeking).

5. The more you can define exactly what you want and narrow down your specification, the better. If you do visit Spa, they sell a wide range of frames in addition to their own, and will build them up to order how you want. But I doubt you would be able to try multiple bikes all in both flat and drop bar configurations.
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by Vorpal »

Have you considered Islabikes? https://www.islabikes.co.uk/
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LollyKat
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by LollyKat »

My daughter is also 5'2". She has a Spa Titanium Tourer size 48cm with 26" wheels, which she bought second hand some years ago, and absolutely loves it - it not only handles well but looks perfectly proportioned. Spa also offer steel versions with either flat or drop bars.

If you want disc brakes the Wayfarer comes in size 47cm for either flat or drop bars, and presumably also with 26" wheels.

The bikes are built up to order, so you can choose your components to some extent. The frames were designed by 531colin OTP who I'm sure would be happy to answer any questions. I have a Spa Tourer (51cm) and it is the nicest bike I have ever had.
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horizon
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by horizon »

Puny but determined wrote: For info, Re SJS, I tried the Thorn Sherpa


A Thorn Sherpa - I don't think so.

My impression is that Thorn got this wrong. I have been to Thorn myself and I did think at the time they were a bit in a rush to judgement - maybe a bit too young and enthusiastic. Whatever the OP said, a Sherpa could not have been the correct answer. It may be the 26" wheels that swung it but 5' 2" does not put you in the "difficult to find a bike that fits" category.

Of course we all have our quirks and foibles and the Thorns (there are several possibilities) might not have felt right, so fair enough. However it is a shame as I think that Thorn almost single-handedly served this market for years. Still, there is Spa, albeit not just round the corner.
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UpWrong
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by UpWrong »

My wife is 5'2 with short limbs. No one makes suitably sized touring bikes. We have a 43 cm Pinnacle women's Neon, a 47cm Spa Wayfarer and a 15'" Squish 26 in the House. You are welcome to come and try them all.

TBH, you need to be able to customise the fit after buying so you need a good ,LBS or competent bike mechanic friend.
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531colin
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by 531colin »

UpWrong wrote:My wife is 5'2 with short limbs. No one makes suitably sized touring bikes. We have a 43 cm Pinnacle women's Neon, a 47cm Spa Wayfarer and a 15'" Squish 26 in the House. You are welcome to come and try them all.

TBH, you need to be able to customise the fit after buying so you need a good ,LBS or competent bike mechanic friend.


5'2" with short limbs is a difficulty for fitting a bike with 700c wheels and drop bars. How does she get on with the Wayfarer? Does she have drops on it?

EDIT....thats a good offer!
Last edited by 531colin on 6 Feb 2021, 11:27am, edited 1 time in total.
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531colin
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by 531colin »

In the general run of events, I wouldn't expect somebody 5'2" to have too much of difficulty getting a bike to fit, even with drop bars and 700c wheels.
Five foot nothing with drop bars and 700c wheels is much more tricky, but do-able....heres my usual picture.....

ImageJeannie 001 by 531colin, on Flickr

The difficulty is getting the front mudguard far enough away so that the rider doesn't kick it, and at the same time getting the handlebars close enough to reach.
This means that drop bars are much more difficult than flat bars, because drops and drop bar brake levers put the rider's hands much further forward than flat bars. If somebody can't fit you with a flat bar bike, they don't know what they are doing. Simple as.
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531colin
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by 531colin »

Puny but determined wrote:......... I like the idea of writing a specification and sending it out. .......


Even if you know what you want and how to specify it, this will be a waste of time.
Bike shops are disappearing up and down the country because you can't make a living.
Theres time to respond to simple queries like "Have you got "X" in stock" but thats it. Spa get loads and loads of E mails and you can't employ somebody to answer E mails.
Somebody has already suggested, if you are going to Spa, phone first and ask what test bikes they have in your size. The test bikes are almost all fitted with drop bars. If they haven't got a tester in your size and they are going to build one up, they might build it with flat bars, if you ask.
Even if the tester has drop bars, you can get a fair idea of what it would be like with flats; the reach will be similar to the reach to the tops of the drops.
I recommend you take one or both of your existing bikes with you to compare to any bike you test ride; this gives you a chance to "ground" yourself; its very confusing testing bikes one after the other, you don't know where you are after a bit.
And a left-field suggestion; if your current hybrid suits you, why not get a local bike shop to lower the gearing? New handbuilt wheels new transmission, even new brakes? The spend will approach the cost of a whole new bike, but at least you know what you are getting.
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by Vorpal »

531colin wrote:In the general run of events, I wouldn't expect somebody 5'2" to have too much of difficulty getting a bike to fit, even with drop bars and 700c wheels.

That's easy to say, but many bike shops are not interested in keeping anything in stock, they don't want to order something unless they know it will be sold, etc. I'm 5'8" and a number of times I've walked into a bike shop and had the staff try to sell me a hybrid, sometimes even when I have called ahead, described my requirements and been told they had something suitable in stock to try. Not only did they not have what I was after, the only bike(s) in my size were hybrids that differed only by whether it was Sora or something better. :twisted:
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slowster
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by slowster »

The OP is a very experienced cyclist, and it seems she knows very quickly if a bike is right for her or not once she has the chance to see it in the flesh, sit on it and take it for a test ride. Unfortunately she is probably not going to find it possible to test ride as many different brands and models as she would probably like (and that probably applies to many of us when considering a new bike: most of us have to order online from retailers like SJS, Spa and others, and inevitably take a bit more of a gamble than we like). On that note, an advantage of upgrading her current bike, as 531Colin and I have suggested, is that would then allow her to investigate and test ride possible future contenders for an eventual new bike or replacement frame at her leisure over the next few years, without any pressure to make a decision before she is ready.

The OP's problem seems to be defining what are the factors and features that make a bike right for her, so that she can evaluate potential contenders from the information available online:

Puny but determined wrote:As to online and specification, I'm pretty hot on gears (Somerset is hilly) but the geometry often defeats me. I have a very comfortable road bike but of course the geometry is entirely different.

She found that the Ridgeback Expedition she ordered in smallest size was "too big by a mile!", but she has not confirmed in exactly what respects it was too big. It sounds like she knew it was too big/wrong for her the moment she sat on it, but she did not investigate further to try to understand why that was the case. If that had been me I would have got a tape measure and firstly tried to replicate the position on the hybrid, and then taken multiple measurements for both bikes to compare the similarities and differences, as well as comparing the published geometry information. I think if someone cannot determine precisely what it is that makes a bike a poor fit for them, they are much more likely to make a mistake when choosing a bike, and to do so repeatedly (been there, done that, not doing it again). As 531Colin has said, there is a limit to what even somewhere like Spa can offer in terms of test rides on different bikes.

Assuming she has not already done so, I would suggest the OP notes down and compares the geometries and measurements of her current bikes, i.e. both the published information specific to the frames (effective top tube/reach, seat angle, stack etc.), and the measurements of the bars and saddle positions on her bikes, and then uses that information to determine if possible contenders would fit her.
Puny but determined
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by Puny but determined »

The Expedition was so laughably bigger than my other bikes I didn't spend any time with a tape measure. Obviously this is my next step. As a number of you have suggested I have refurbished my old hybrid multiple times (like the broom with 5 new handles ans 6 new heads) but the frame remains pretty much the only original part except for some heavy front suspension that I would like to be rid of. I have therefore had leisure to look about as you suggest and avidly read reviews in the Cycling mag, although some of it makes no sense to me. I think I will give SJS another go as they generally seem well rated and are local. Has anyone got anything to say about the Raven? (it's above my budget really).
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531colin
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by 531colin »

Vorpal wrote:
531colin wrote:In the general run of events, I wouldn't expect somebody 5'2" to have too much of difficulty getting a bike to fit, even with drop bars and 700c wheels.

That's easy to say, but many bike shops are not interested in keeping anything in stock, they don't want to order something unless they know it will be sold, etc. I'm 5'8" and a number of times I've walked into a bike shop and had the staff try to sell me a hybrid, sometimes even when I have called ahead, described my requirements and been told they had something suitable in stock to try. Not only did they not have what I was after, the only bike(s) in my size were hybrids that differed only by whether it was Sora or something better. :twisted:


Thats ridiculous. 5' 9" is reckoned to be average male height. Now I'm in my seventies I have to wear shoes to measure 5' 9".(...I used to be 5' 10" in my socks.) More than half the population is under 5'9" tall.
Anybody who can't fit somebody 5' 8" is either incompetent, not interested or so dazzled by the latest fashion they can't see whats important.
Were these "bike shops" staffed by smirking teenage boys who think its funny to be rude and unhelpful ? I see no purpose in trying to support a cycle shop if its dysfunctional.
I think you have been cycling long enough to know whats important for you. Just get out the geometry tables and find a frame which is capable of getting the saddle and bars where you want them relative to the bottom bracket, and thats most of the job done. Then front centre (if overlap is important to you) BB drop (if getting a toe down is important to you) tyre clearance and perhaps chainstay length. (Have a look at a website called "Geometry geeks" lots of geometries already input by enthusiasts....I suspect you will be better able to work the website than me)
I can design a bike to fit somebody 5' nothing, with drop bars and 700c wheels. I am not a genius, its not that hard. However, I can't do it using forks with fashionable 45mm offset, and it doesn't have a fashionable 1000mm wheelbase.
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by PH »

Puny but determined wrote:Has anyone got anything to say about the Raven? (it's above my budget really).

Firstly that it's discontinued. I had one for a few years, loved the Rohloff hub (Which I still have) and the bike was OK but not very inspiring unless loaded up, when it became the best touring bike I've ridden. It wasn't dissimilar to the Sherpa, other than the gearing. Along with several other models, the Raven has been replaced by the latest version of the Nomad, which has several build options and wheel sizes, I have no experience of it.
Another model in their range you might consider is the more traditional Club Tour, there might be a more suitable build if you found the Sherpa too heavyweight, like all their frames that are designed to come with straight or drop bars, there's a choice of top tube lengths, which might help with sizing. I do still have a Thorn, the Mercury, very happy with it though it's not a touring bike, I like dealing with Thorn, always quickly answer emails, better returns policy than anyone else I've dealt with and in normal circumstances offering decent test rides (I doubt they are at the moment). They're not cheap, but they are well made and finished. I'm a bit reluctant to give an opinion on any bike beyond that, I've never bought a bike on the basis of a test ride. I hade a bike fit done by Paul Hewitt almost twenty years ago, though I wasn't a very experienced a cyclist at that time. I've based all bike choices since on that information and what I've learnt along the way. It wouldn't be true to say I'd always made the best choices, but where I haven't kept the bike it's been because I've been wrong about what I was looking for. It's taken me months, sometimes years, to come to those conclusions, a test ride would have been of no benefit to me.
Good luck
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Re: How to try and buy a bike

Post by slowster »

1. Rohloffs are very marmite. I would suggest that you only get a bike with one if you are very confident that you want a Rohloff.

2. If your hybrid has suspension then you should definitely be able to find a much lighter alternative. A classic touring frame should be lighter.

3. "I have refurbished my old hybrid multiple times...but the frame remains pretty much the only original part" In that case I might have suggested buying a frame from Spa (Tourer if rim brake, Wayfarer if disc, short top tube Wayfarer if you want the choice of rim or disc) and transplanting the components*, but if you also want to lower the gearing and the current drivetrain needs to be replaced to achieve that (as opposed to just fitting a larger cassette or smaller inner chainring), then I guess a complete new bike may make more sense.

* You could pay a bike shop to do it, but it's not hugely difficult to DIY: plenty of how to videos online if you can take your time and do it bit by bit. The main issue for many people is needing a few special tools like bottom bracket and crank tools and cable cutters etc. in addition to generic allen keys, spanners and a hacksaw (to cut the steerer tube).

4. I thought Vorpal's suggestion of Isla Bikes interesting. They don't have a reputation of making bikes for adults which are intended for heavily loaded touring, but the Beinn 29 looks like a fairly light hybrid which might suit you (aluminium would not be my preference for a tourer, but the big US brands make some aluminium framed tourers). However, it looks like you cannot buy the frame on its own, and I suspect you would need to replace and upgrade the 1x drivetrain and very possibly the wheels as well).

It's a shame that Isla Rowntree doesn't offer a more traditional tourer with a steel frame. As a 5' 4" former top cyclocross rider with a huge amount of knowledge and experience, I think she would be able to design bikes that got the balance of compromises just right in a frame designed for shorter riders. Interesting article here on her own custom made rough stuff bike.
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