Old HPV SMGT - getting out of storage, ready for use!

[Psamathe]

If you don't feel like or don't have time for DIY mounts there are quite a range of ways to fit a bottle cage where the frame has no threaded holes

e.g
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottles-cag ... ersamount/
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottles-cag ... age-mount/
https://www.zefal.com/en/bottle-cages/6 ... ersal.html

I've no experience with any so no idea how good they are, I just remember having seen them when looking for ways to mount lights.

IN

[Tangled Metal]

I got the zefal one in the last link somewhere in the garage. Might work on an upright but it puts the bottle horizontal. Since even the best bike bottles end up leaking if not vertical m or heat vertical I'm not keen on actually using it.

I did have a camelback in a neoprene case that had straps if I had that I'd strap it around the seat under the pad. I ended up using a bladder strapped on top of the rear rack once but the tube needed strapping away from the wheel. Never liked that solution.

Being fussy I know. The bolting through the seat seems a good bet if I dare drill the seat. Would free up the derailleur stub for lights.

[pjclinch]

Stability... low or high centre of mass is a two-edged sword for stability, if you're very slow (which you are when you get going from standing still, of course) recumbents are worse, but once you're going at jogging pace or more they're fine and at speed they're typically better. So the start is more inclined to wobble, certainly until you unlearn pulling on the bars, but for a high speed descent the SMGT is brilliant. The combination of the low(ish) position, moderately wide tyres, full suspension and serious braking power that doesn't tend to pitch you over the bars makes it a demon descender and on a CTC club run on twisty descents I can leave everyone, including fitter, faster riders on road bikes, for dead.
I know the SMGT can be ridden no-hands... but not by me. The steering geometry is such that I won't even try... but it only needs fingertip pressure on one side to hold it very steady.

Bottles, I'll again suggest the Ortlieb pannier-mounted ones, since you say you use Orts... https://www.ortlieb.com/uk_en/bottle-cage
Also, while almost all bidons leak if not upright the Camelback Podium bottles don't, with a proper seal at the top and a closable valve on the nipple. I think they're very good, though of course you do pay more for them.

Pete.

[Psamathe]

Re: Bottles being non-horizontal: You can get "stand-up" brackets e.g. ICE's Bottle Cage Riser https://www.icetrikes.co/buy/accessorie ... -and-cages - which is a small bracket that fits on normal bottle cage mounts and gives a new bottle cage mount but at a raised angle.

I suppose it depends if you drink whit you ride. I rarely drink on the move and on my tadpole there is a bottle cage mount on the boom and I have one of the above linked "bottle cage riser" brackets but I took it off and have my water bottle/cage bolted to the seat (holes that were as supplied by ICE who also provided/sold bolt kits with special washers for fitting things to said holes).

Ian

[Tangled Metal]

I use camelback podium and the insulated podiums and they certainly do leak after a bit of use. That's use not abuse too. Mine leak even though locked. Once you've dismantled once to clean it is never quite as good as when new.

I have considered the ortlieb solution but bolting through the fabric seems like a recipe for leaks to me. It makes sense but the idea of leaks put me off the idea.

[Tangled Metal]

The ice trikes have bottle bosses on the boom, old version SMGTs don't. I really don't understand how a design engineer would let a touring recumbent design through without bottle cage bosses or at least ones that you can use with the other essential, lights.

[pjclinch]

I have considered the ortlieb solution but bolting through the fabric seems like a recipe for leaks to me. It makes sense but the idea of leaks put me off the idea.

When one is poised with the punch (supplied, with template) one thinks "do I really want to do this?", but it's well designed and built to be sealed by the mounting strip . The same mount will also take additional pockets, so on tour I typically have the bottle holder on one and a wee toolkit baggie on the other.

I understand the wariness, but it works, stays waterproof, and I'm far from great with my hands so no need to be a master craftsman to do it.

Pete.

[Tangled Metal]

So do you lay the template inside the pannier where you want it and punch through? Then the bolts go through and fabric of pocket or plastic of cage seals with the nut at the other side I suppose.

Must admit I have absolutely no doubt ortlieb has it sussed and foolproof. Doesn't mean I find it an easy prospect to accept.

What happens if you no longer need them? My ortlieb rollers used on the rear rack of my upright and recumbent when touring get used commuting, leisure rides, even when doing MTB trails on my upright road bike. In those I would prefer a basic roller without n extra pocket or cage. Can you seal it without the cage or pocket?

[pjclinch]

So do you lay the template inside the pannier where you want it and punch through? Then the bolts go through and fabric of pocket or plastic of cage seals with the nut at the other side I suppose.

Must admit I have absolutely no doubt ortlieb has it sussed and foolproof. Doesn't mean I find it an easy prospect to accept.

I concur it is a horrible prospect taking a very uncheap waterproof pannier and punching several holes in it, but I managed!
I've just found this...

that shows you the whole process (including various pro-tips I didn't think of, but even so I got it done okay)

What happens if you no longer need them? My ortlieb rollers used on the rear rack of my upright and recumbent when touring get used commuting, leisure rides, even when doing MTB trails on my upright road bike. In those I would prefer a basic roller without n extra pocket or cage. Can you seal it without the cage or pocket?

What you add to the pannier are mounting rails, not the actual cage or pocket. So if you're just wanting a plain pannier you leave off the pocket/holder and it's as it was originally but with a couple of plastic bars wherever you've decided to put them. The pocket and/or bottle cage just clip in/out as needed.

Pete.

[thirdcrank]

So do you lay the template inside the pannier where you want it and punch through? Then the bolts go through and fabric of pocket or plastic of cage seals with the nut at the other side I suppose.

Must admit I have absolutely no doubt ortlieb has it sussed and foolproof. Doesn't mean I find it an easy prospect to accept.

I concur it is a horrible prospect taking a very uncheap waterproof pannier and punching several holes in it, but I managed!
I've just found this...

that shows you the whole process (including various pro-tips I didn't think of, but even so I got it done okay)

What happens if you no longer need them? My ortlieb rollers used on the rear rack of my upright and recumbent when touring get used commuting, leisure rides, even when doing MTB trails on my upright road bike. In those I would prefer a basic roller without n extra pocket or cage. Can you seal it without the cage or pocket?

What you add to the pannier are mounting rails, not the actual cage or pocket. So if you're just wanting a plain pannier you leave off the pocket/holder and it's as it was originally but with a couple of plastic bars wherever you've decided to put them. The pocket and/or bottle cage just clip in/out as needed.

Pete.

If ever there was a case of the trees obscuring the wood, this is it. The fact that somebody senior from Ortlieb makes a vid to show the workaround for their utter obtuseness just emphasises this for me. Ortlieb luggage - especially panniers - is full of plastic hardware and that's part of the beauty of those products. To fit the mounts for the extra pocket, bottle holder etc would be nothing at point of manufacture and - as was pointed out to me at my LBS years ago when I bought mine - it would increase sales of those accessories.

It's not up to me to tell a successful company how to run their business, but this is one of those cases where the customer is right.

At least Carradice sew on their pockets at the factory: they don't expect customers to source an industrial sewing machine

[pjclinch]

I have these on my Sportpacker Plusses. I don't have them, and do not want them, and wouldn't have wanted to pay for them, on my Rear Rollers, my Sport Packers or my Rear Roller Plusses. I could put them on to non-Ortlieb panniers if I wanted to.

I generally go for Orts because of the combination of clean, unfussy compartments with very good, easy to use mounting hardware. If I wanted loads of pockets there are plenty of other options (why these are optional extras where one occasionally wants a pocket while most use is without). In this case I was primarily in it for the bottle holder because of the same niche-issue Tangled Metal has: a Streetmachine GT is a tourer that doesn't have easy-to-reach standard bottle cage mounts.

So I'm not convinced Ortlieb have got it wrong. If you want lots of pockets then don't buy Orts. If you very occasionally want a pocket (or a bottle on a pannier) and have some Orts because you like the clean design with just one big compartment most of the time, you can buy one of these rather than a whole new set of pocketed panniers.

Pete.

[Tangled Metal]

You also but ortliebs for their weather resistance. I've had a carradry bar bag and whilst it's an ortlieb competitor the quality was dreadfull. It had the yarns of the base fabric fraying from the seams after the first week of a two week holiday. Plus I think the ortlieb designs are better than the carradry ones.

BTW if you really want pockets on bike luggage I'd look at arkel over carradice. Its a more forward looking company than carradice and has better products in all ways imho.

When I got my ortlieb panniers I did think I'd miss pockets. Never did. The simple one chamber bag works. I've been using it in rucksacks for decade before I got into cycle touring. It simply makes packing simpler. Simpler means better when you're packing up on a wet day.

If I get ortlieb cages it's purely because SMGTs have this one touring weakness.

BTW can you put a cage where Pocket went and vice versa? Are the fixings exactly the same ones?

[pjclinch]

BTW can you put a cage where Pocket went and vice versa? Are the fixings exactly the same ones?

Yes, they're totally interchangeable ("small pocket", that is).
You can also use a detached pocket as a simple weatherproof organiser baggie for, errrr, waterproof organisation.

[pjclinch]

You also but ortliebs for their weather resistance.

While they are good in that respect I think that in a touring perspective it's an over-rated quality. Since you'll typically want wet/dry compartmentalisation inside in any case any weatherproofing is effectively redundant. Rely on the pannier itself to keep everything inside dry, put in a wet tent and... oops!
Related, every few years someone re-invents the waterproof rucksack, announcing it as a game changer for hillwalkers/backpackers/mountaineers. And aside from being more expensive and once you put a crampon through them not waterproof for anything like their working life (my expedition sack is over 30 years old), nothing is different, everyone continues to use liners to compartmentalise and keep dry stuff dry and wet stuff contained and the game is not changed and the new line of packs disappears...

Having said that, for urban short(ish) haul a properly waterproof bag is often a really big win, particularly with papers, laptops etc.

BTW if you really want pockets on bike luggage I'd look at arkel over carradice. Its a more forward looking company than carradice and has better products in all ways imho.

Company motto seems to be "if a thing is worth doing, it's worth over-doing"... I suppose it's the case that one person's great design is another's pointless over engineering (you could apply the same criticism to Ortlieb, of course!), and its up to individuals to decide where the line is.

My remaining Carradice bag is my Brompton bag in cotton duck. Smart, well made, functional. The pockets on that I do like, easily placed to reach in to when riding.

Pete.

[thirdcrank]

Let's imagine you are the descendant of Tullio Campagnolo or Shozaburo Shimano (had to look that one up) and discover that a geezer in the UK is explaining to people how to mix'n'match -"Shimergo"- your stuff with the competition's output, I think you might feel justified in looking at ways of being a spoilsport, while thinking of ways to deliver what the customers who did that were looking for.

Now, Ortlieb came up with the excellent idea of external accessories including pockets for some of their excellent luggage, initially to be retro-fitted by the purchaser, involving stress at the least for some customers, eg YOS. I presume they have had customer feedback about this and their solution is a vid showing just how easy it is. As I said the trees are obscuring the view of the wood. imo of course.

Now for anybody tempted by the external pocket, I'd say don't let me put you off because once fitted - if you don't mutilate your pannier in the process - that external pocket is excellent. It's better than a fixed one because it's removable for separate use. Thinks: one possibility would be to incorporate it into the Ortlieb "Saddlebag" system so that if you had all your tools etc in one pack you could move them from bike to bike.

Here's something I prepared earlier - 2006.

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