Longstaff solo trike education required

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Tortoise
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Joined: 3 Jan 2008, 2:28pm

Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby Tortoise » 21 Nov 2011, 2:42pm

I'm perilously close to succumbing to the temptation to acquire a Longstaff solo trike. Trouble is, I know very little about them. I think I would prefer a two wheel drive machine and I know George Longstaff invented a form of differential, necessary for such a beast. I recall reading somewhere that older versions were based on a Maillard (presumably screw on) gear hub, but that later, George created a version based on a splined cassette type hub; I'd guess that the latter is the more desirable but don't know if converting from the old to the new is feasible - ?

I've quickly browsed the Trike Association website but unless I've missed it , there's not much technical stuff and they don't have a forum.

If there's anyone out there with knowledge of these things who'd be willing to give me a few pointers I'd be very grateful.

Elizabethsdad
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby Elizabethsdad » 21 Nov 2011, 7:35pm

Earlier on this year I briefly owned a Thorn/Longstaff tandem trike. I got it off e-bay with the idea of trying to encourage my wife to try tandem riding, the idea being we could take it as slowly as we liked without feeling like we were going to fall over. That idea didn't work out but I did look into converting it from one to two wheel drive and contacted trykit conversions - there should be a link from the tricycle association website - never got around to getting the work done but heseemed very helpful and knowledgable. If I recall rightly the standard two wheel drive is based on two freewheels rather than a differential, the only pedal tricycle specific differential I have found is made by Samagaga in Taiwan and used on the Greenspeed Anura. I got one for a quadricycle restoration project I have taken on - another impulse e-bay purchase. Not fitted yet so can't report on it Samagaga are very helpful and the differential costs $61 but shipping and customs charges about tripled that :-(

drossall
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby drossall » 21 Nov 2011, 9:06pm

You need tatanab of this forum.

My trike is a one wheel drive Ken Rogers, and I'm still learning after three years, so I'm not an expert. However, I believe that Longstaff and Trykit now use similar axles. I've thought about a Trykit conversion for mine, but it would cost more than the machine did in the first place :(

You may also find this rider's experience interesting, as well as more from the same person here, some information on the CTC site, and a short discussion on another forum.
Last edited by drossall on 21 Nov 2011, 11:31pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tortoise
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby Tortoise » 21 Nov 2011, 10:39pm

Thanks for that, several interesting leads there, particularly the article about the Trykit conversion.

(Although, drossall, the CTC article link in your post is actually a repeat of the pedal-trikes.blogspot one! Sorry!)

drossall
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby drossall » 21 Nov 2011, 11:32pm

Oops, link corrected :oops:

tatanab
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby tatanab » 22 Nov 2011, 8:41am

Similar questions were asked in this thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57323&p=481515&hilit=trike#p481515 only a couple of weeks ago. Much of what you are asking is covered there. If you PM me with a real email address I can send you and exploded diagram of a Longstaff Maillard TWD axle and can also explain more about the differences, history, what to look for etc.

I suppose the reason the TA website does not put much technical info on the website (it has manufacturer's history) is because it would be impossible to know where to draw the line, and with current products there may be copyright issues. The TA is a small club, about 600 members, so I really do not think there would be much activity on a forum except as another job for somebody to monitor it.

hercule
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby hercule » 22 Nov 2011, 9:43pm

Longstaff trikes tend to be on the pricey side - deservedly so, as they are the pinnacle of the frame-builder's art!

Ken Rogers made trikes with differentials - I know, because I have one in the garage... Having ridden OWD trikes, I can confirm that TWD ones are easier especially on hills and on steep cambered roads.

I think there are two systems - I'm sure I will be corrected if wrong. Differentials send the power to the fastest moving wheel - this means that the outside wheel is driven when cornering. It also means if you lift a wheel or hit some ice the wheel with traction will stop. Usually traction is very rapidly restored - the common scenario for me is on a gravelly uphill - and it's not a problem. I did read somewhere that the dual freewheel type of TWD puts the power to the slower wheel, thus maintaining traction. No experience of them so please tell me if I'm talking twaddle!

My Rogers has a Maillard 6 speed screw on freewheel, a differential and a Sachs hub brake on the rear axle. Admittedly the rear hub brake is not up to much more than gentle retardation. This is probably related to the fact that hub brakes are less effective in larger wheels and the rear axle is relatively unloaded. If I ever got round to it, I'd get a second pair of braze ons on the front forks for a second front brake instead.

I think Hase in Germany produce their own differentials for their Kettwiesel and Lepus trikes.

Slidingpillar
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby Slidingpillar » 27 Nov 2011, 1:29pm

Longstaff can 'convert' an early 2wd to the current type. Not sure of which bits you need to send them, but best way is to ask.

I'll eventually have to as my Longstaff is an early type 2wd drive. Jolly good to ride, I'd not want a 1wd now of the upwrong trad format.
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BeeKeeper
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby BeeKeeper » 12 Dec 2011, 2:56pm

hercule wrote:I think there are two systems - I'm sure I will be corrected if wrong. Differentials send the power to the fastest moving wheel - this means that the outside wheel is driven when cornering. It also means if you lift a wheel or hit some ice the wheel with traction will stop. Usually traction is very rapidly restored - the common scenario for me is on a gravelly uphill - and it's not a problem. I did read somewhere that the dual freewheel type of TWD puts the power to the slower wheel, thus maintaining traction.


A conventional differential, of the type fitted to most cars, delivers an equal amount torque to each driven wheel but is relaxed about the actual speed each wheel is doing. So when the axle is going round a corner the inside wheel will be turning slower than the outside one but both wheels will have an equal mount of torque so the tractive effort from both is the same. The disadvantage of this type of differential is if one wheel slips, say in mud or because the inside wheel begins to lift off the ground when cornering fast, the outside wheel can only deliver as much torque as the slipping inside wheel - i.e. not very much. This is why racing cars have "limited-slip" differentials which use a variety of methods to ensure the remaining wheel on the ground can deliver drive even when the other wheel is off the ground. On the better cross-country vehicles the differentials can be locked so both wheels on each axle move together at the same speed and cannot slip unless both slip to together.

The twin free-wheel type of axle is as you describe but it has the disadvantage for a motor vehicle that the vehicle will accelerate when it enters the corner as the inside wheel will try to move at the same speed as the vehicle was going when it was on the straight. Perhaps not such a problem for a trike but potentially alarming for a motorist. The conventional differential goes round the corner so the centre of the axle is going at the same speed as the vehicle was on the straight. For trikes I guess weight and simplicity are major factors so the twin freewheel type of drive scores well even though it lacks the engineering elegance of a differential.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Longstaff solo trike education required

Postby [XAP]Bob » 12 Dec 2011, 4:38pm

Ah - that's why differentials are preferred.
Of course as cyclists we'd feel the additional load of trying to accelerate into a corner ;)

I consider the dual freewheel to be a fairly elegant solution...
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