front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

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Brucey
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front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Brucey » 31 Aug 2018, 1:22pm

I think that indexed front shifting is very often something of a curse rather than a blessing; after all it isn't that difficult to trim a front derailleur so that it doesn't rub, using a friction shifter. As soon as you introduce indexed front shifting there is a reduced choice of front derailleurs that can be made to work with any given system; as well as the usual constraints, the shift ratio of the FD ( which varies through the stroke of the FD and therefore with chainline) needs to be correct as well as all the usual things (which amount to about a dozen different FD characteristics).

Getting the FD setup wrong (in terms of cable pull) can result in

- the shifter internals seeing a massive load when you are on the big ring (because the FD is strained against the stop screw in the mech) and/or
- the shifter internals seeing a massive load when a downshift to the small ring is initiated; a lot of stored energy slams the FD into the low gear stop and/or exerts a sudden pull into the shifter internals.

That is if it works at all; a slight mismatch will result in some or all of the 'trim clicks' being less than useful.

Indexed MTB front shifters usually have no trim clicks, and rely on the fact that typical MTBs have stiff frames and use smaller (and stiffer) chainrings so that they can be set not to rub; this mostly works OK too, provided you stick to matched sets of bits and the correct chainline etc.
[ NB: MTB shifters and FDs use a longer cable pull than most 'road' FDs (11s doubles and FD-4700 being notable exceptions, having a longer cable pull) and won't mix and match perfectly with road STIs/FDs..]

However as soon as chainrings/chainsets start to become larger/flexier (and gears more numerous, and chainstays shorter) there is an increased tendency towards rubbing and this means that shifters with trim clicks are required to make the use of indexed front shifting tenable. So most shimano road STIs have trim clicks in them, and so do many of their imitators. If this is not your first trip down bike-buying alley, you will understand the importance (or not) of trim clicks, and will want to understand what you are buying. However short of actually trying the shifters out for yourself, it isn't easy to find out if a given shifter has trim clicks or not, and if it does, whether it has enough of them and that they are arranged in a sensible way. There are several different protocols for working the trim clicks and (especially with triple shifters) this can be a significant difference.

Years ago I got caught out when I bought an Ultegra equipped machines with a 3 x 9s 6500 groupset fitted. I'd had 2x8 6400 stuff before and 'just assumed' that the trim click arrangement would be similar. Harrumph, it wasn't.... For some mad reason the ST-6510 shifters had no trim clicks in the big ring position; the net result was that I was unable to set the FD so that it never rubbed; full gas there were only about four sprockets that I could use without rubbing on the big ring and when just tapping along it was no more than six or seven. I was gutted; I never had a single ride on that bike where I wasn't annoyed by the rubbing.

So I have trawled the interweb for any information I can find on this topic and it is presented (or linked to) below;

Class 1 a/b/c. Many late 9s and early 10s triples; a) ST-7803, ST-6603, ST-5600, ST-R700, b) ST-7703, c) ST6510, ST-5510, ST-R600, ST-4400, ST-R500 etc
https://web.archive.org/web/20100705001424/http://bike.shimano.com:80/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/tech_support/tech_tips.download.-Par50lparsys-0030-downloadFile.html/06)%20Trim%20Function.pdf

Class 2a: Some 11s and 10s double shifters ST-9000, ST-6800, ST-5800, ST-4700, (also SL-4700, SL-RS700 flat bar shifters) etc
Image Most double STIs work like this.

Class 2b: Microshift SB-R4X2
Image
Note that on upshifts the shifter will latch into the big ring trim position if you don't swing it all the way, in contrast to the (claimed) behaviour of Class 2a.

Other: Microshift ST-R760-3, ST-R769-3
Image
(Works similarly to Class 1a)

In addition models not listed above;

RSX (3x7) type shifters (ST-A410) have no trim clicks
ST-6400 (double) shifters have trim clicks as per Class 2b.
RX-100 (ST-A550) double shifters are Class 2b
Sora triple (ST-3304) is a variant on class 1, (lets call it Class 1d), in which there is a trim click on the small chainring position, that is accessible from the small chainring position only. There are no trim clicks on the middle and big rings. (This presumably comes from the same mindset as gives us class 1b, in which there are extra trim clicks on the small chainring).
Tiagra ST-4600 2x10 shifters are Class 2b

please feel free to add further information regarding individual models. I shall be adding to the list as and when I have shifters in my grubby little paws.

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 1 Sep 2018, 7:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NetworkMan
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Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:13am
Location: South Devon

Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby NetworkMan » 31 Aug 2018, 9:15pm

Hi Brucey,
Not sure if you saw the table I uploaded earlier :- download/file.php?id=52879&mode=view or if it adds anything.
It always seems to me that trimming an indexed front shifter is almost a contradiction in terms. If it needs trimming it aint indexed!

Brucey
Posts: 31105
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Brucey » 31 Aug 2018, 11:07pm

NetworkMan wrote:Hi Brucey,
Not sure if you saw the table I uploaded earlier :- download/file.php?id=52879&mode=view or if it adds anything.
It always seems to me that trimming an indexed front shifter is almost a contradiction in terms. If it needs trimming it aint indexed!


This?
Image

very useful, thanks! It gives the number of trim positions (if not the actual sequence of them) and also tells you how to set up a triple shifter in a double setup, where this is permissible.

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Mick F » 1 Sep 2018, 9:08am

My only experience with indexed front shifting was when Moulton was STI equipped. TBH, I didn't like it. I much prefer non-indexed front shifting. I feel more in control.

The Tiagra setup worked well, and I was impressed how the front shifting worked and it took me some time to understand how it worked. Main issue with it, was that it would only trim in one direction, but it didn't matter at all.

Friction shifting front and rear is the way ahead for me I reckon. It doesn't care how many sprockets or rings, or what make or what design ................... and it's cheaper! :D
Mick F. Cornwall

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Brucey » 1 Sep 2018, 9:52am

this user manual
http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/um/UM-6VX0A-002-00-ENG.pdf

covers pretty much all current/recent shimano STIs;

SL-R3000
SL-R3030
ST-2300
ST-2303
ST-2400
ST-2403
ST-3500
ST-3503
ST-4600
ST-4603
ST-4700
ST-4703
ST-5800
ST-6800
ST-9000
ST-9001
ST-R2000
ST-R2030
ST-R3000
ST-R3030
ST-R350
ST-R353
ST-R460
ST-R7000
ST-R8000
ST-R9100

which implies that they all have trim clicks and furthermore that they are similar trim clicks. If so, it would be the first time ever... I suspect that the vagueness in the manual (it doesn't tell you the latching sequence or the number of trim clicks) may obscure the fact that they are not all the same.

This manual covers installation (but not correct adjustment or operational principles) of several current STIs
http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-ST0002-05-ENG.pdf


Buried deep within this manual (pp56-61)

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-GN0001-21-ENG.pdf

is the information you really need which explains how the trim clicks are sequenced and how to adjust the system.

IIRC all the relevant information used to be in a short document that came with each component called 'Service Instructions' (SI techdoc). It seems that to learn how to set up and use a current shimano FD/shifter combo, you need to dig through three separate manuals, each one up to 176 pages long. This arrangement is surely for the convenience of shimano, not the convenience of the user/fettler....?

cheers
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 1 Sep 2018, 10:22am

Hi,
I only have MTB's triggers,get right and can be flawless, and Bar ends (tourer) with notches on the FD, trimming is second nature, the right bar end also has a friction only option.
The 1983 koga two clanger has a neat auto chain reshipper (outer) which works (the RD had indexing notches built in to the derailleur its self (pre SIS), used with a friction DT lever as standard), not sure what Mick's got on the Mercian but we had a few tea breaks on wimps while he sorted :mrgreen: :lol:
My chain did unship wimps out on the Koga but the magic notch on the crank arm sorted before I had realised what had happened :)
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Sweep
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Location: London

Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Sweep » 1 Sep 2018, 3:14pm

Interesting post brucey.

Any info/data you have on flat bar shifters would be handy as well.

I have a few of these laid up:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... -prod87307

Discontinued I'm pretty sure.
Sweep

Brucey
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Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Brucey » 1 Sep 2018, 4:58pm

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/si/SI-6FH0C-000-ENG.pdf

covers SL-R441 (front) and SL-R440 (rear) shifter models. SL-R441 can be used to operate a double or triple chainset.

SL-R440 also comes in pairs, with the rear shifter either SL-R440-8 or 9s version.

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/si/SI-6FK0A-000-ENG.pdf

the above techdoc suggests that there are similar trim clicks in SL-R440 and SL-R441 front shifters.

These documents suggest that trim clicks are available using the downshift lever but not the upshift lever. This doesn't make perfect sense to me and I forget if this is actually the case or not, maybe you can say?

cheers
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Sweep
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Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Sweep » 2 Sep 2018, 5:59pm

Hi brucey

I wasn't so much as!ing about techdocs for those particular mechs (i have them) as wondering whether there were any more trimmable flat bar shifters.

To answer your question on those left shifters there appear to be 4 c!icks going up and 3 going down, if that makes sense.
Sweep

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Brucey » 2 Sep 2018, 8:32pm

hmm, three clicks going down? That suggests that one of the trim clicks at least is accessed using the downshift lever.

Shimano have done other flat bar shifters for 'road' groups (ultegra 11s and metrea 11s spring to mind) but I'm not sure if they have trim clicks and I don't think they all support triple chainsets. Looking here

http://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shimano/2018_compatibility.html

anything with SL-**** format may be a flat bar shifter, so

2x11 includes SL-U5000 Metrea (which is about half the price of the Ultegra level option IIRC)
2x10 includes SL-R780, SL-R460, SL-4600, SL-4700
3x10 includes SL-4703, SL-R783, SL-4603

If built as per the earlier units these shifters should have trim clicks on the LH shifter. It ought to indicate this in the relevant user manuals.

As for other makes, I'm really not sure. Someone else will know, I expect....

cheers
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Manc33
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Re: front shifter trim clicks, by model, mostly shimano STI

Postby Manc33 » 23 Sep 2018, 1:36am

Both flat bar road shifters:

SL-R440
One trim function (middle chainring).

SL-R770
Two trim functions (middle and outer chainrings).
Only weird bikes are interesting anymore.