Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
User avatar
Simon L6
Posts: 1382
Joined: 4 Jan 2007, 12:43pm

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by Simon L6 »

John Catt wrote:.........So I believe that "public benefit" is the principal reason for the CTC existing in its present form and so charitable status is an obvious way to go, whilst allowing the organisation to still provide benefits to members, since these are fully in line with its role in promoting cycling.

John - put your plan Z to the AGM in the form of a resolution. I believe the closing date is the 1st Feb. If the membership votes for a Sustrans 2 then you'll be proved right. But my good friend Mr. Coral will give you long odds.

It's a simple thing, really. The CTC asks its members why they are members. None of them mention having a loss-making department of seconded staff operating behind closed doors offering gold stars to local authorities without reference to the local DA or the local RtR reps. They mention the stuff that Cycle magazine lists. The 3rd party insurance, the mag, the campaigning, the legal and touring advice. All of which will become discretionary if the takeover by the charity goes ahead.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36740
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by thirdcrank »

John Catt wrote: ... I would suggest that the real issue is does the Council properly represent the membership? This of course has nothing to do with whether or not the CTC is a charity.


Hole in one, but perhaps not in the way you intended.

It seems pretty clear that the CTC is not made up of 60,000 cyclists with a burning ambition to be a CTC councillor - many are elected unopposed and of those, some have been pressed. So the way the Council is elected is perhaps symbolic of the attitude of the membership, which is what counts.

There has been criticism of the way that this is being driven through - and I'd not count myself among the enthusiasts - but I think it is only fair to those doing the driving to look at this from with might be called a democratic analysis. David Robinson, who signs as Chairman, so I'll use that, is a very experienced local party politician and highlights that as one of his qualities for the role - it's on his electoral address on the CTC www. The whole point of representative democracy is that most of us pick others to make decisions for us, although different constitutions delegate different levels of authority. The reason for the existence of politicians is that somebody has to think up policies, have them accepted and then implement them. It is inevitable that they are familiar with the protocols of their own elected body and know how best to work successfully within them.

On that basis, it's hardly surprising that the Chairman has identified what he sees as the best policy and is now using the CTC's procedures to have it implemented. That's the basis on which he stood for election. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the absence of the equivalent of political parties means there is no organised opposition. No equivalent of MPs putting on an opera hat and shouting "I spy strangers" or US senators filibustering, or whatever. And in this context, no "Loyal Opposition" going tghrough his detailed manifesto before the election. In his Chaiman's bit in the current mag, he makes the point that many of the members he speaks to think the CTC is already a charity. (I'm on hol so quoting that from memory.) It could just as easily be said that many members haven't much idea at all of the legal status of the CTC (how many people could explain what a "company limited by guarantee" is?)

So in that sense, the answer to the question I quoted seems to be "Yes."

OTOH, reference is made above to "mutuality" which I tend to think is pretty much the opposite of "charity" in that it's not based on altruism and any benefit to a wider society is an accidental side-effect. To the extent that I fancy a lot of the membership would favour a mutual model (which has served the CTC since its foundation) if they thought about it, I think full charity status will come as a shock to many, especially if the allegations of hazy accountancy are correct. Many of the tangible assets have already been transferred and we are into "perfectly legal, time to move on" mode when allegations are made that the signatories of the relevant documents did not really know what they were doing. Only time will tell and I sincerely hope that I am shown to be completely wrong.
manybikes
Posts: 302
Joined: 9 Apr 2007, 10:21am

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by manybikes »

John Catt wrote :-
I don't believe that members who left substantial legacies did so in order that members could maximise their personal benefits, but to allow the club to promote cycling, and particularly cycle touring, within the population as a whole.
(bold emphasis mine)

So at what level in the heirarchy of priorities do you envisage the new all encompassing charity places "particularly cycle touring"? It seems to me that over the years the CTC has been gradually distancing itself from the tourists in favour of utility cyclists and campaigning issues. For many - but I could not quantify how many - the touring element, particularly and variously, the mutuality, the shared experiences, and the undoubted expertise of the likes of Mark Waters and Chris Juden who give impartial practical and equipment advice aimed at cycle touring are THE priorities.

I am a club rider of many years standing (holding DA office) and love cycle touring, especially camping. Where do I go for interest or guidance at the moment? CTC route sheets, and Cycle plus the articles written many years ago in the magazine that I kept when they were longer and more detailed, rather than just half a page as they are often now. There really is nowhere else with their reputation.

How is the new charity status going to satisfy my and others' expectations in this regard? Perhaps you will tell me that my desires are in such a minority that they should be subsumed into those of the public good?
PRL
Posts: 609
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 9:14pm
Location: Richmond upon Thames

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by PRL »

Regulator wrote:Effectively, members will become second class citizens in their own club. Council and National Office will be able to override the wishes of members, even where instructed by an AGM, using the 'public interest' argument.


If Council were wildly out of step with the wishes of members they would surely find themselves voted out.
I have been a member for many years and view the main benefit from my membership arising from promoting cycling generally rather than in particular services to myself. As a RTR rep I look at schemes for their benefit for all cyclists not just CTC members.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36740
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by thirdcrank »

PRL wrote:... I have been a member for many years and view the main benefit from my membership arising from promoting cycling generally rather than in particular services to myself. As a RTR rep I look at schemes for their benefit for all cyclists not just CTC members.


And having been there myself, I'm sure you are right - as you see things. If you follow the CTC RtoR ethos - if I may call it that - I imagine that you are a stalwart defender of the rights of cyclists to ride on the highway, rather than just touching your forelock and being grateful that the highway authority is so generous as to put a white line up the middle of the pavement with CYCLISTS DISMOUNT signs at either end. With a greater reliance on govt contracts, it may just be that the CTC suddenly discovers that all this Right to Ride stuff is a bit of an anachronism - after all, these countless would-be cyclists would prefer not to ride on the road at all. As I said above, I'm desperately hoping to be proved wrong. (And as an aside, since at least part of the Council is made up of "conscripts" rather than volunteers, being voted out is hardly a threat. In any event, by that stage the irrevocable decisions would have been taken - as indeed many already have.)
Karen Sutton
Posts: 608
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:18pm
Location: Greater Manchester

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by Karen Sutton »

manybikes wrote:John Catt wrote :-
I don't believe that members who left substantial legacies did so in order that members could maximise their personal benefits, but to allow the club to promote cycling, and particularly cycle touring, within the population as a whole.
(bold emphasis mine)

So at what level in the heirarchy of priorities do you envisage the new all encompassing charity places "particularly cycle touring"? It seems to me that over the years the CTC has been gradually distancing itself from the tourists in favour of utility cyclists and campaigning issues. For many - but I could not quantify how many - the touring element, particularly and variously, the mutuality, the shared experiences, and the undoubted expertise of the likes of Mark Waters and Chris Juden who give impartial practical and equipment advice aimed at cycle touring are THE priorities.

I am a club rider of many years standing (holding DA office) and love cycle touring, especially camping. Where do I go for interest or guidance at the moment? CTC route sheets, and Cycle plus the articles written many years ago in the magazine that I kept when they were longer and more detailed, rather than just half a page as they are often now. There really is nowhere else with their reputation.

How is the new charity status going to satisfy my and others' expectations in this regard? Perhaps you will tell me that my desires are in such a minority that they should be subsumed into those of the public good?


The CTC Strategic Vision for 2007-2012 has the following on page 8/9:

Strategies:

The marketing and communication programmes behind these activities will emphasise the distinctive characteristics of CTC.
That CTC is distinguishable from other cycling bodies by its purpose, values and independence.
That CTC has national status and aims.
That cycling is vibrant, fun, aspirational, exciting – CTC must communicate relevantly and attractively.
Getting involved with CTC will become easier through flexible schemes for attracting increasing numbers of members, supporters and customers.
We will build on CTC’s heritage of experienced cyclists coming together to ride with others, to share their stories, to give advice and to demonstrate the enjoyment and health that cycling can bring.
We will develop ways to include less active cyclists or non-cycle users who are supportive of our aims and aspirations. We will translate the experience of existing cyclists into knowledge that is beneficial for all.

2. Cyclists’ Touring Club is our body for touring, travelling, holiday & leisure cyclists.

We will promote Cyclists’ Touring Club as an integrated leisure cycling club based on the following strengths.

Our welcoming, knowledgeable and sharing network of local touring clubs.
Our information, services and advice.
A comprehensive service package aimed at the leisure market.
Our subsidiary company CTC Cycling Holidays and Tours.


Has the Strategic Vision been dropped now, or is it still being followed alongside the push for CTC to become a Charity in its entirety?
Regulator
Posts: 523
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 10:13am

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by Regulator »

thirdcrank wrote:It seems pretty clear that the CTC is not made up of 60,000 cyclists with a burning ambition to be a CTC councillor - many are elected unopposed and of those, some have been pressed. So the way the Council is elected is perhaps symbolic of the attitude of the membership, which is what counts.


You make an important point. Some of us on Council have raised the 'democratic deficit' or lack of membership involvement on a number of occasions but we are simply told "we've been elected to do things".

I look round the table at my fellow councillors and see a number of ex-local authority officers and councillors. Then the lack of enthusiasm for member consultation and encouragement to the membership to get involved is suddenly explained...
George Riches
Posts: 782
Joined: 23 May 2007, 9:01am
Location: Coventry
Contact:

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by George Riches »

Regulator wrote:I look round the table at my fellow councillors and see a number of ex-local authority officers and councillors. Then the lack of enthusiasm for member consultation and encouragement to the membership to get involved is suddenly explained...

That's wiffs a bit of rhetoric... Can you name any institution which is successful in encouraging mass involvement in its governance?
Regulator
Posts: 523
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 10:13am

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by Regulator »

George Riches wrote:
Regulator wrote:I look round the table at my fellow councillors and see a number of ex-local authority officers and councillors. Then the lack of enthusiasm for member consultation and encouragement to the membership to get involved is suddenly explained...

That's wiffs a bit of rhetoric... Can you name any institution which is successful in encouraging mass involvement in its governance?


Yep! For example, prior to its conversion to a charity, the Youth Hostelling Association had very high rates of involvement. When it became a charity members were effectively disenfranchised. Many of the professional bodies have very high active participation rates as well.

But you seem to be missing my point. This isn't just about CTC not engaging members... its about many on CTC Council not wanting to engage with members. For example, at present Council meetings are held in London and Manchester. I suggested that we might like to try other places, such as Newcastle or Bristol - places where our members might be able to get to more easily. Plus we should encourage members to attend by publishing agendas in advance (so they can see what is being discussed) and having an open forum part of the meeting.

These suggestions went down like a lead balloon. It seems that some councillors only want to get through the agenda as quickly as possible - and that's it. You might like to ask some of the members who attend the meetings just what the atmosphere is like - it isn't exactly conducive to members' active participation... but it should be. After all, it's the members' club.
bikepacker
Posts: 2311
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:08pm
Location: Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by bikepacker »

[quote="] After all, it's the members' club.[/quote]

No it.s not, members are a necessary evil.

Regulator you said it yourself, it has a council of ex-local authority officers and councilors. Ex-empire builders and quango members used to having large incomes and wasteful spending. This club needs member focused entrepreneurial leadership and the only way we are going to move in that direction is to throw out the charity proposals.
There is your way. There is my way. But there is no "the way".
User avatar
Simon L6
Posts: 1382
Joined: 4 Jan 2007, 12:43pm

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by Simon L6 »

Image
Image

any thoughts?
User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 15191
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by Si »

On the face of it it looks pretty damning.

But would it be a fairer summary if someone could produce a similar productivity and benefits produced chart? How you would produce such a thing I do not know. But it would be wrong to damn something based only on the money spent on it and not on the (non-monetary) benefit derived from it.

However, based on the discussions in this thread I have the feeling that even if such chart was produced int he interests of balance, that it would also have the potential to be quite damning too!

Also, I would want to know if the immense amount that goes to the Trust is only a one off or is likely to continue? Like climate change, we shouldn't judge on one bad winter :wink: However, if the (dare I say it) 'hemorrhage' continues then amputation might be preferable to spending all our money on sticking plasters.
User avatar
Simon L6
Posts: 1382
Joined: 4 Jan 2007, 12:43pm

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by Simon L6 »

the amount going in to the Trust is going to continue - it may increase. W'll know more after the Council meeting on 23rd January. Of course, if people give up their membership the per capita cost is going to rise.....

I would have posted similar diagrams for the Trust, but they would be of limited value. I can't find a figure for expenditure on the BIG Lottery Cycle Champions project - well, I can, but it's in a different table and may not fully relate to the table these diagrams are based on.

The real point of the diagram is this - members might be interested in where their money goes. What proportion of the sub goes on 3rd party insurance, or supporting the mag?

I'd welcome an explanation for 'central overhead' costs.

The deficiency in the expenditure diagram is that it doesn't show campaigning - which accounts for 20% of the money donated to the Trust.

Just a (hopefully final) word on John Catt's Plan Z. Not all members pay their subs year by year. There are many life members. If, theoretically, members were offered the opportunity to join a Club, which, by my estimation, could manage on subs of about 50% of the current level, then the life members would tend to stay with Nu CTC and those paying annually would tend to leave. The more astute of you will have worked out the consequences...........
MartinC
Posts: 2166
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by MartinC »

The biggest item of expenditure is a donation to the trust.

Please can someone tell us what this is spent on and what it does for us?
George Riches
Posts: 782
Joined: 23 May 2007, 9:01am
Location: Coventry
Contact:

Re: Are we looking forward to being a membership charity?

Post by George Riches »

I certainly agree that the spending on the trust needs to be broken down. But the spending on the membership system seems to be way too high. Is this the result of National Office allowing far too many varieties of membership, leading to horrendous complexity?

Representing members means collective representation, not trying to adapt to every individual's idiosyncrasies.
Post Reply